i was watching GF2 yesterday and Michael didnt know Pentangeli was still alive , then Hagen says their men in NYPD found him half dead and cursing Michael , why wasnt Michael told he was still alive before the senate hearing if he had men in NYPD?

wanna know wat you all think

Well, Anthony, that's really the $64,000 question. Why indeed? I offer two short answers:
1. Hagen fell down on the job--again. He should have known about Pentangeli's survival because he had "people with the New York detectives." If you did, Tom, why in hell didn't they tell you about Frankie's survival--and why didn't you check with them before advising your one and only client to perjure himself five times before a Senate committee? DUHH-H, Tom--that's one of the reasons why you're not a wartime consigliere.

2. (Attention, Apple!): It was a dramatic nuance designed to set up two of the Trilogy's absolute best scenes: The confrontation with Michael and Fredo in the boathouse, and Pentangeli's sudden about-face when his brother showed up at the hearing.

I have a longer theory, but I'll wait for others to post.

thanks alot for that i thought it might of been another example of sloppy writing by Puzo

I'm not sure it was sloppy writing by Puzo (who also wrote the script with FFC -- so if there is blame here, it should equally fall on the both of them) but just dues ex machina to set up the hearing and the Hagan visit at the end of the film.

Plus, as with many other instances in the film, there are small gaps in logic that are neatly placed in the film to allow our imagination do the connecting. It could be sloppy writing, but I would like to believe it is intentional... which is why these movies are considered some of the greatest of all time and we are still discussing the films to this day.

doesnt look like turnbull will get to say his longer theory ... and i was looking forward to it lol

Just like who opened the drapes and who killed the would-be assasins...it's one of those holes, those never-to-be-answered questions that personally I hadn't really thought about and that FFC/Puzo assumed would never be asked 30 years later.

Which I think is a more crass way of agreeing with Turnbull's theory # 2.

And now Turnbull...you can present your 'longer' theory.



Apple

You think, maybe, embarrassing Tom in front of the boys about his mistress was Mike's way of chiding his consigliori about his brain possibly going soft from all that comedy he's playin' with that young girl?

Apple, I think the would be assassins killed themselves rather than be taken alive, or get chewed up by the dogs.

Oh, right that makes alot of sense.

The jig's up, dammit. Let's cut our own throats and lay down in a ditch to avoid being caught alive.



Apple

Thank you, Apple, here it is. Please bear with me:


Congressional committees publish their schedule of hearings months in advance, the better to allow members to milk the publicity value and win votes. Roth would have learned that the Senate was scheduling hearings on organized crime. As an organized crime figure himself, Roth would take a keen interest in them. And he would have heard that Questadt, the committee’s chief counsel, was “for sale.” So he would have “bought” Questadt, who was a valuable property—as the top staff guy in a major investigation of organized crime, Questadt would have useful contacts with Federal, state and local law enforcement, including New York.

When the NYC cops broke up the attempted murder of Pentangeli, he was, as Hagen told Michael, “half-dead, scared, talking out loud about how you betrayed him.” The NYC detectives would see immediately that they had a potential Mob turncoat. They would have kept Frankie’s survival secret, the better to protect him against another attempt on his life while they worked to keep him talking about his boss, Michael Corleone. They also would have called Questadt, to tell him that they landed a big fish.

Questadt would immediately see dollar signs: this info would be worth diamonds to himself and to Roth. He’d call the New York County District Attorney (maybe the NY State Attorney General) and convince him to turn Frankie over to the FBI. The DA would agree. Why? Because New York wouldn’t have a chance of convicting Michael on Frankie’s confessions and/or testimony alone.

[LAW STUFF]: The big charges against Michael—the Sollozzo/McCluskey murders and the massacre of the Dons—occurred many years earlier, and the Statute of Limitations had run out on those crimes in late 1958, when Frankie was captured. Also, New York would need corroborating witnesses to back up Frankie’s stories, and they wouldn’t get any, given Michael’s reputation for ruthlessness. But Questadt would tell the New York DA that the Feds could prosecute Frankie for crimes not specific to New York, such as being in charge of all the gambling and narcotics in America,” or having “secret” ownership of hotels in Nevada; and maybe even nail him for perjury on the earlier crimes. And Questadt would tell the NY authorities that the Feds would assume the responsibility—and the cost—of housing, feeding and protecting Frankie. New York would hand Frankie over to the FBI. [END OF LAW STUFF]

So, why didn’t Michael know about Frankie’s survival? Michael ran his New York operation by proxy through Frankie. Contacts with the police would be through Frankie, not Michael. In fact, since Michael was obsessed with being “respectable,” it’d be in his interest not to have direct contacts with the NYC police—let Frankie do it. So, the NYC cops might not even have known that Michael was Frankie’s boss; or maybe the cops who grabbed Frankie and kept his survival secret weren’t those whom Frankie paid off.

Now for the denouement:

By this time, Roth had escaped Cuba and recovered from his stroke and attempted assassination. He’d feed Questadt incriminating evidence on Michael and anything else he knew, including the famous brothel murder that implicated Senator Geary, a member of the committee. Questadt would have no problem convincing his bosses, the Senators, to go along: they’d see that they could become famous for nailing Michael Corleone in televised hearings by setting a perjury trap for him. The key player would be Geary. Questadt would work the brothel-murder angle to get Questadt to trap Michael. Questadt would tell Geary: “Here’s your chance to get revenge on Michael Corleone.” The unspoken threat: “I know about that brothel murder—if you don’t go along, you’ll be exposed.”

Willie Cicci was the unwitting trap: Since the committee didn’t acknowledge that they had Frankie, it looked like Cicci was the top witness against Michael. Then Geary played his part. He asked Cicci a question seemingly helpful to Michael: “Did you ever get a direct order from him [Michael]? Or was there always a buffer?” “No, I never talked to him,” replied Cicci. Michael relaxed: The committee had no one who could testify that they got a direct order from Michael; therefore it was safe to deny all the committee’s charges under oath because no one could contradict him. Little did he know that the committee had Frankie waiting in the wings. The beauty part: the committee didn’t have to prove that Michael committed any of the crimes they asked him about, nor did they have to produce corroborating witnesses. They had him on perjury—a charge that can be sustained on the say-so of a single witness (Frankie) and a prosecutor clever enough to convince a jury to believe him. Each charge of perjury carries a five-year sentence. Michael could have gone away for 25 years without ever having been convicted of murder, gambling, narcotics, etc. Clever Questadt and Roth!

Tom specifically refers to 'Our people with the New York detectives ...' This would imply that somebody in that precinct would have the ability and desire to get word to Michael through one of the 'buffers' that Frankie had been taken in after the attempted murder, which for a while Michael thought had been successful.

If they did not, then they would probably not remain 'Our people with the New York detectives...' for too much longer after Michael found out the truth.

Let's face it, it's another one of those 'holes' that fortunately doesn't affect the overall story.

Apple

I'm not saying no. But "our people" may have been old-time contacts from Michael and Tom's NYC days, not necessarily the most current Frankie contacts. And anyway, as we both agree, certain leaps of faith are necessary to maintain drama in the films--logic can be so boring...

In other words, while its somewhat interesting to a degree....maybe we're not supposed to fret about all this 'background' logic in order to enjoy the films.

Yes, much of this is borrowed from real life organized crime history...but overall, the characters themselves are still works of fiction.

I'll say one thing, though...wondering how Michael didn't know Frankie was alive is a helluva bit more compelling a topic than why wasn't anybody crying at Vito's funeral.



Apple

if frankie was head of the Corleones in NYC why didnt whoever took over new york during Frankies absence find out he was still alive? because am sure they would of had people in the department

The two top guys--Frankie and Cicci--were in police custody. The Rosatos, who would have taken over, were on the lam following the shootout with the police. I'm guessing that nobody was in charge for a while. In Cuba, Michael says to Roth, "Who had Frank Pentangeli killed?" That means that he knew about the incident (although not about Frankie's survival) and may have designated a successor for New York, or put Tom in charge temporarily.

But keep in mind that Frankie's regular liaisons in the Police Department may not have been the ones who knew he'd survived (the arresting officers kept it secret). And even if they did, they'd have no incentive to tell Michael or Tom because Michael and Tom weren't paying them off--Frankie was, and he'd turned rat. When Tom said, "Our contacts with the NY detectives said he was half-dead..." he probably meant contacts from the old, pre-Nevada days. And by that time, the cat was out of the bag: Frankie was going to be the witness against Michael in less than a week. No more secret.

ooooo very good answer lol thanks alot

I like all the theories, but I have another thought to throw out here:

How come Fredo knew about Pentangeli?

I think Tom dropped the ball big time, as did Neri and even Michael.

Everyone was aware that Frankie was going to make peace with the Rosato Brothers. So off he goes with Willie Cicci and he never comes back. There was no body found, there is no proof he is dead, just some kind of presumption. Frankie had a wife and a family. Didnt they ask questions about what happened to him? Wouldnt they have wanted a funeral? Didn't the fact that Frankie simply disappeared raise some eyebrows? And if Frankie did disapear wouldnt Tom (or someone) have contacted "their people" with the NYPD to find out what they knew about what really happened to Cicci and Pentangeli? Did they know Cicci was alive and in some kind of witness protection program or in jail?


Also, in a rare disagreement with the estimable Turnbull, I think you are mistaken on the Statute of Limitations issue.
The Statute of Limitations on first degree murder in most jurisdictions is forever. In reality, however it would have been difficult to pin the murders on Michael so many years later (people forget things, witnesses die, etc) so they were definitely going for perjury.

By the time Michael and Fredo met in the boathouse, everyone knew that Pentangeli had survived. The reason Michael summoned Fredo was to pump him for info about Pentangeli. So even if Fredo hadn't known about his survival before the meeting, Michael told him.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dontomasso:
I think Tom dropped the ball big time, as did Neri and even Michael.

That was my first choice for an answer to the original question.

Everyone was aware that Frankie was going to make peace with the Rosato Brothers. So off he goes with Willie Cicci and he never comes back. There was no body found, there is no proof he is dead, just some kind of presumption. Frankie had a wife and a family. Didnt they ask questions about what happened to him? Wouldnt they have wanted a funeral? Didn't the fact that Frankie simply disappeared raise some eyebrows?

A likely explanation is that, in order to keep Frankie's survival secret, the police told the news media that he'd been killed. Only Frankie's wife and daughter would have need of finding his body--and I'm guessing that the cops provided them with protection after Frankie started "talking out loud."
And if Frankie did disapear wouldnt Tom (or someone) have contacted "their people" with the NYPD to find out what they knew about what really happened to Cicci and Pentangeli? Did they know Cicci was alive and in some kind of witness protection program or in jail?

If the police did tell the news media that Frankie'd been killed, and if the media reported it as such, Michael and Tom would have no reason to think he'd disappeared. They'd simply assume that he was dead and buried. And neither Michael (who was in Cuba) nor Tom (who had to look after things in Tahoe) would have any incentive to attend his funeral.

Also, in a rare disagreement with the estimable Turnbull, I think you are mistaken on the Statute of Limitations issue.
The Statute of Limitations on first degree murder in most jurisdictions is forever. In reality, however it would have been difficult to pin the murders on Michael so many years later (people forget things, witnesses die, etc) so they were definitely going for perjury.

You could be right, my estimable friend. But the New York State legislature only recently (within the last 5 or 10 years) removed the statute of limitations on murder. In late '58, when Frankie started singing, I believe the statute of limitations for murder was seven years.
Although the McCluskey/Sollozzo murders occurred in late '45 or early '46 and were thus beyond the statute of limitations, the NYC authorities had nothing on Michael anyway because, as we learn from the novel, Vito and Tom had arranged for someone else to take the fall. The "murders of the heads of the Five Families" as the Senator called them, occurred in 1950, according to the Senator--putting them beyond the statute of limitations at the time of the Senate hearings. [N.B.: we all know that the murders occurred in '55, but time has a way of shifting mysteriously in sequel films--just look at Vito's birthdate )
But the beauty part, as you note, was the potential for perjury. Even though the statute of limitations for murder had run out on Sollozzo/McCluskey and the "Five Families" Dons, Michael's denial of involvement in same was a current crime--perjury--and could have been prosecuted as such.

While Tom nor Mike would not have been able to atttend the funeral it is hard to believe that some representative of the Corleone family would not have made contact with Frankie's "widow" to offer help, consolation, and to represent them at his funeral. Also there would be the matter of who would take over Frankie's house.

Since Roth was also in Cuba at the time, he would have had to a) know Pentangeli was singing to the NY Cops, buy off Questadt, and help coordinate a witness protection deal for Frankie AND his family. This would mean silencing them or having them tell the Corleones that they didnt need any help, didnt want them to come to the funeral etc... this would have also raised eyebrows.

I have to agree with DC ...Tom may have been going soft in the head with all that comedy he was playing with that (not so) young girl.

I think that Frankie's complete disappearance is evidence that the whole incident was orchestrated by Roth and that the cop didn't just stumble onto the scene.

One of the unknowns is how much time elapsed between Frankie's meeting with the Rosatos and the Cuba sequence. If they occurred simultaneously or almost simultaneously, there's a good chance that Roth didn't know that Frankie had survived. But let's keep in mind that Roth was convinced that Michael would never leave Cuba alive. So, even if Roth knew that Frankie had survived, his only need would be to keep Michael from knowing that, not to make other, more extensive (and risky) arrangements that might have tipped his hand.
Which brings me to a point I want to make with moustachepete and others who believe that Roth engineered Frankie's survival in order to put Michael in the Senate perjury trap:
Roth lured Michael to Cuba for one purpose: to get the $2 million, and then have him assassinated. In Roth's plan, Michael would never leave Cuba alive. Why, then, would he engineer an impossibly difficult, impossibly risky, split-second entry by a cop to save Frankie in order to set him up as a witness against Michael Corleone--who Roth planned to kill in Cuba months before the Senate hearings were due to convene?

Which brings me to a point I want to make with moustachepete and others who believe that Roth engineered Frankie's survival in order to put Michael in the Senate perjury trap:
Roth lured Michael to Cuba for one purpose: to get the $2 million, and then have him assassinated. In Roth's plan, Michael would never leave Cuba alive. Why, then, would he engineer an impossibly difficult, impossibly risky, split-second entry by a cop to save Frankie in order to set him up as a witness against Michael Corleone--who Roth planned to kill in Cuba months before the Senate hearings were due to convene? [/QB][/QUOTE]

He would not have. Here is a possibility. Mike told Roth that "Frank Pentangeli is a dead man." Roth said Pentangeli was "small potatoes," and thanked Mike for getting the go ahead from him. Since Roth planned to kill Mike in Cuba, he could have given the Rosato brothers the ok to kill Pentangeli (or engineer what I agree to be a very difficult intervention by a cop, leaving Frankie alive) in an effort to further weaken and disrupt the Corleone family. With Michael and Pentangeli out oof the way, Roth would have been able to take over all the Corleone operations in Nevada AND in New York without a war.

Given the outcome, it would seem that Roth had too few alternative plans, rather than too many.

the other thread reminded me

why didnt geary tell michael that pentangeli was alive? i know the brothel thing was for the gaming liscense but i think he still owes sumthin to the corleones

I believe Geary was an important part of the Senate trap to nail Michael for perjury. See the other thread:

http://www.gangsterbb.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=006295