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Re: Airport Security
[Re: Capo de La Cosa Nostra]
#395307
05/23/07 11:29 AM
05/23/07 11:29 AM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,724
Double-J
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,724
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No. It's not iffy for political correct reasons, it's iffy because of democratic reasons. But I'm gay like that; I class myself as on par with an Arab terrorist, because I'm in no position to doubt he doesn't believe in what he does. Democratic reasons? Like what? That you have the unalienable right to get on an airplane no matter who you are? Last time I checked, that isn't a civil right. Nobody should be offended or made uncomfortable in order to preserve the freedom of others. "Sorry, ma'am, I have to check you in order to preserve the safety of yourself and others" should apply to a Catholic caucasian nun as much as it should to a young Arab. I think everybody should be made uncomfortable, everybody should be offended. Everybody should be checked. Yeah, you believe that. I'm sure the Catholic nun, the little white old lady, is packing some C-4 in her purse. But then you'd probably argue against that and say it'd cripple our air traffic systems, up admin fees and taxes and whatnot. It'd be an intrusion upon your rights, simply because you were born to not physically fit the profile of an Arab.
You can't have it both ways. Blah, blah, blah. You're willing to sacrifice people's lives to uphold this sacred value of "democracy" which you haven't defined. Some ideal of civil rights that are nonexistent? They could do a lot better than they are, and I've already discussed that (even though you've neglected to read that). I don't want it both ways. I want security improved. Part of that is racial and ethnic profiling, particularly based upon country of origin. Senseless destruction. That's what it's all about.
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Re: Airport Security
[Re: Capo de La Cosa Nostra]
#395309
05/23/07 11:31 AM
05/23/07 11:31 AM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,724
Double-J
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,724
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So what you mean is that, on a simple level, you remember 9/11 and now look at Arabs with caution? 9/11? Let's talk about the various domestic terrorist cells uncovered, suicide bombings in London and Madrid, and a slew of other attacks on civilians over the past decade by Islamic terror.
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Re: Airport Security
[Re: Double-J]
#395311
05/23/07 11:35 AM
05/23/07 11:35 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296 Throggs Neck
pizzaboy
OP
The Fuckin Doctor
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OP
The Fuckin Doctor
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
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Hey, I kind of started this, so let me say this: I really am middle of the road, politically speaking. I detest the "good old boy" racist mentality as much as I hate pandering to extreme Leftist Liberals.
I grew up in a VERY segregated East Bronx, where if you brought a black kid into my neighborhood, you'd get the same dirty look from an 85 year old woman as you would from a 20 year old male. However, like Capo, I've tried to distance myself from that mentality, while remaining close to some unfortunates who still think that way. It's not inherent, in my opinion, it's really the old nature vs. nurture, heredity vs. environment argument.
If your brought up around racism, you have to consider yourself lucky if you have the opportunity to get away from that kind of thinking. I know I do.
"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
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Re: Airport Security
[Re: Sicilian Babe]
#395316
05/23/07 11:44 AM
05/23/07 11:44 AM
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 12,543 Gateshead, UK
Capo de La Cosa Nostra
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 12,543
Gateshead, UK
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Capo, be it nature or nurture, I agree with DJ that all people are racist on some level. We tend to stereotype and generalize. It's not a good thing, but it is a reality. If by "We" you mean the civilised, sophisticated, educated Capitalist West, I agree. Once we're nurtured beyond childhood into wanting to serve the state, make money and retire with profit and so-called happiness, we tend to have been corrupted also into a dangerous, ruthless and quite insane state of mind which tends to think about others more than the self. But yeah, that entire paragraph could probably be met with a really great, extensive, convincing argument such as "Blah blah blah". Democratic reasons? Like what? That you have the unalienable right to get on an airplane no matter who you are?
Last time I checked, that isn't a civil right.
It isn't, no. But I don't see how anybody could have the right or be in any position to judge who gets on a plane and who doesn't based solely on skin colour. Next you'll be saying, "Woah, he smells of curry, he's not getting on this fucking plane." (Save the rant about the racist tones in that, I'm aware of them and used them for a reason.) I'm sure the Catholic nun, the little white old lady, is packing some C-4 in her purse. I don't, actually. But I have as much reason to believe she doesn't as I believe the Arab sitting next to me doesn't. And I think that checking everyone makes it more systematic, fair, and less of a lottery. Contrary to what your pal Goldberg says, I can't "worry about [consequences] later". Goldberg, you and others are like a small unit of police who run from place A, where you're killing off Soviets, then rest in the shadows and get bored, and then rush to place B to kill off the Arabs. The kind who scream "WAR!" when you see a plane going into a building and then rush off without really thinking about it. Self-proclaimed moral upkeepers. It's horseshit. And your "blah blah blah" sarcastic hostility and extremist intolerance is outright fucking annoying. The only reason I'm posting this is that if I didn't, you'd probably be stroking your cock saying, "I won! I won! He doesn't have an answer to my profound way of thinking!!!!" Well I do, just so you know if you respond to this, but I shan't even bother typing it out.
...dot com bold typeface rhetoric. You go clickety click and get your head split. 'The hell you look like on a message board Discussing whether or not the Brother is hardcore?
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Re: Airport Security
[Re: Double-J]
#395317
05/23/07 11:45 AM
05/23/07 11:45 AM
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 12,543 Gateshead, UK
Capo de La Cosa Nostra
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 12,543
Gateshead, UK
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So what you mean is that, on a simple level, you remember 9/11 and now look at Arabs with caution? 9/11? Let's talk about the various domestic terrorist cells uncovered, suicide bombings in London and Madrid, and a slew of other attacks on civilians over the past decade by Islamic terror. Actually, no, let's say 9/11. I said "on a simple level" for a purpose. Don't fucking ignore things I deliberately put in there to guard against that kind of reply.
...dot com bold typeface rhetoric. You go clickety click and get your head split. 'The hell you look like on a message board Discussing whether or not the Brother is hardcore?
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Re: Airport Security
[Re: Capo de La Cosa Nostra]
#395396
05/23/07 03:51 PM
05/23/07 03:51 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,512 Right here, but I'd rather be ...
long_lost_corleone
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,512
Right here, but I'd rather be ...
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Alright, having just read Lead's original posts, and none of the replies, I think that guys thoughts are fucking ridiculous.
Here's a little antidote: my grandmother fell and broke her hip a few weeks prior to 9/11 (I know, I know, old lady breaks her hip, a bit of a humorous stereotype). So, then she had to get surgery on it. Now, my grandmother still works; She's 78, and refuses to retire, and I think that's great, seeing as its her choice. I don't think I'd make the same choice, but good for her. Part of her job involves a lot of traveling. So on one of the first few days after the 11th in which they began allotting commercial flights around the US, she had a plane to catch. Because of her hip she was in a wheelchair. And security stopped her, and did a thorough search for about a half hour. And I don't think a single member of my family blames the security. An old lady in a wheel chair at a time when terrorism threat is a possibility... It just makes sense to search her. I mean, an old lady is an easy decoy.
Not to mention the extreme racism implicated in this practice. If I were to meet Bernard Goldberg, I'd probably rape him. Right after asking him about some advice on my disproportional perspiration.
"Somebody told me when the bomb hits, everybody in a two mile radius will be instantly sublimated, but if you lay face down on the ground for some time, avoiding the residual ripples of heat, you might survive, permanently fucked up and twisted like you're always underwater refracted. But if you do go gas, there's nothing you can do if the air that was once you is mingled and mashed with the kicked up molecules of the enemy's former body. Big-kid-tested, motherf--ker approved."
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Re: Airport Security
[Re: pizzaboy]
#395402
05/23/07 04:05 PM
05/23/07 04:05 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,512 Right here, but I'd rather be ...
long_lost_corleone
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,512
Right here, but I'd rather be ...
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I think you'd enjoy some of what he has to say, LLC. Maybe so. But this passage just comes off really fucking arrogant.
"Somebody told me when the bomb hits, everybody in a two mile radius will be instantly sublimated, but if you lay face down on the ground for some time, avoiding the residual ripples of heat, you might survive, permanently fucked up and twisted like you're always underwater refracted. But if you do go gas, there's nothing you can do if the air that was once you is mingled and mashed with the kicked up molecules of the enemy's former body. Big-kid-tested, motherf--ker approved."
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Re: Airport Security
[Re: klydon1]
#395538
05/24/07 07:38 AM
05/24/07 07:38 AM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,724
Double-J
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,724
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The article or poll does not state that one in four Muslims in the US supports suicide bombers. But it is written in such a way as to heighten or inflame our fears against Muslims. "One in four younger U.S. Muslims say suicide bombings to defend their religion are acceptable at least in some circumstances, though most Muslim Americans overwhelmingly reject the tactic and are critical of Islamic extremism and al-Qaida, a poll says." Quotable?
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Re: Airport Security
[Re: olivant]
#395539
05/24/07 07:40 AM
05/24/07 07:40 AM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,724
Double-J
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,724
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Reading these posts, it is so surprising to me that they contain no reference to the US Constitution. Some of you need to read (or reread) my post above. Also, your posts do not contain any reference to due process, reasonable suspicion, probable cause, or the 5th or 14th amendments to the US Constitution. That Constitution is not something we work around, or the provisions of which we skirt. In case you elect not to read my post above, let me reiterate: those who composed and ratified the US Constitution and its subsequent amendments feared government. And yet, as I've given examples (perhaps you should re-read mine), Constitutional rights can be suspended in dire times...
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Re: Airport Security
[Re: Double-J]
#395575
05/24/07 10:57 AM
05/24/07 10:57 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,029 Texas
olivant
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,029
Texas
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Reading these posts, it is so surprising to me that they contain no reference to the US Constitution. Some of you need to read (or reread) my post above. Also, your posts do not contain any reference to due process, reasonable suspicion, probable cause, or the 5th or 14th amendments to the US Constitution. That Constitution is not something we work around, or the provisions of which we skirt. In case you elect not to read my post above, let me reiterate: those who composed and ratified the US Constitution and its subsequent amendments feared government. And yet, as I've given examples (perhaps you should re-read mine), Constitutional rights can be suspended in dire times... Except for Habeas Corpus, please cite that provision(s)of the US Constitution that permits Constitutional rights to be "suspended" and by whom.
"Generosity. That was my first mistake." "Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us." "Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
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Re: Airport Security
[Re: olivant]
#395647
05/24/07 01:46 PM
05/24/07 01:46 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,724
Double-J
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,724
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Note that I said to re-read my post, not the Constitution...
Executive orders? I realize they aren't part of the Constitution, but they have superseded it. I mean, some of FDR's programs and measures (including #9066) were essentially beyond the reach of the necessary and proper clause, yet they were done through executive order. And if Martial Law is declared, if I'm not mistaken, "all bets are off," so to speak.
Either way, given the previous terrorist attacks, and also the overwhelming predisposition of certain ethnicities and countries of origin connected to terror, I'd say that's probable cause, at least in the case of airport security. I'm not saying a secret police. Not even illegal search and seizure. There is no right to travel, and therefore, I would think that airport security would certainly be subject to different measures than, for example, a typical traffic stop.
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Re: Airport Security
[Re: Double-J]
#395677
05/24/07 02:15 PM
05/24/07 02:15 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 11,797 Pennsylvania
klydon1
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 11,797
Pennsylvania
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Note that I said to re-read my post, not the Constitution...
Executive orders? I realize they aren't part of the Constitution, but they have superseded it. I mean, some of FDR's programs and measures (including #9066) were essentially beyond the reach of the necessary and proper clause, yet they were done through executive order. And if Martial Law is declared, if I'm not mistaken, "all bets are off," so to speak.
Either way, given the previous terrorist attacks, and also the overwhelming predisposition of certain ethnicities and countries of origin connected to terror, I'd say that's probable cause, at least in the case of airport security. I'm not saying a secret police. Not even illegal search and seizure. There is no right to travel, and therefore, I would think that airport security would certainly be subject to different measures than, for example, a typical traffic stop. FDR's programs did not violate the Bill of Rights or the XIV Amendment. Your application of probable cause is also misplaced. To apply probable cause to racial profiling you have to establish that there is a probability or likelihood that each individual within the subject class is involved in planning to do harm. The fact that the September 11 hijackings were carried out by Arabs or Muslims does not make it probable that the 25 year old Arab graduate student getting on a plane in Kansas City is a terrorist. And there is a Constitutional right to travel, guaranteed by the Interstate Commerce Clause. In fact, this right was critical in the Civil Rights movement as it was used to strike down racially discriminatory practices of restaurants and hotels because it inhibited the ability of Blacks to travel if they could not be provided food or lodging.
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Re: Airport Security
[Re: klydon1]
#395690
05/24/07 02:57 PM
05/24/07 02:57 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,029 Texas
olivant
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,029
Texas
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Note that I said to re-read my post, not the Constitution...
Executive orders? I realize they aren't part of the Constitution, but they have superseded it. I mean, some of FDR's programs and measures (including #9066) were essentially beyond the reach of the necessary and proper clause, yet they were done through executive order. And if Martial Law is declared, if I'm not mistaken, "all bets are off," so to speak.
Either way, given the previous terrorist attacks, and also the overwhelming predisposition of certain ethnicities and countries of origin connected to terror, I'd say that's probable cause, at least in the case of airport security. I'm not saying a secret police. Not even illegal search and seizure. There is no right to travel, and therefore, I would think that airport security would certainly be subject to different measures than, for example, a typical traffic stop. FDR's programs did not violate the Bill of Rights or the XIV Amendment. Your application of probable cause is also misplaced. To apply probable cause to racial profiling you have to establish that there is a probability or likelihood that each individual within the subject class is involved in planning to do harm. The fact that the September 11 hijackings were carried out by Arabs or Muslims does not make it probable that the 25 year old Arab graduate student getting on a plane in Kansas City is a terrorist. And there is a Constitutional right to travel, guaranteed by the Interstate Commerce Clause. In fact, this right was critical in the Civil Rights movement as it was used to strike down racially discriminatory practices of restaurants and hotels because it inhibited the ability of Blacks to travel if they could not be provided food or lodging. Kudos Klydon. We need more erudite people like you. There is a paucity of knowledge about our Constitution, laws, and legal concepts among Americans. I'm glad that I have company on this Board when it comes to an understanding of Constitutional issues. It is frustrating to experience the alacrity with which some Americans regard the Constitution's provisions. I become very concerned when someone views executive orders as "supercedng" the Constitution. That betrays a mindset of which the Founding Fathers et al were quite wary. As far as martial law goes, there is not any provision in the US Constitution for dispensing with any provisions of the US Constitution (except Habeas Corpus) regardless of the circumstances.
Last edited by olivant; 05/24/07 02:59 PM.
"Generosity. That was my first mistake." "Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us." "Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
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Re: Airport Security
[Re: olivant]
#395836
05/25/07 08:28 AM
05/25/07 08:28 AM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,724
Double-J
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,724
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Forgive me for not being either a Constitutional scholar nor a lawyer...obviously in such matters I'd defer to more educated, thoughtful posters. That being said, I hope we're ready for this again: Though I suspect even that won't wake some people up.
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Re: Airport Security
[Re: Double-J]
#395837
05/25/07 08:36 AM
05/25/07 08:36 AM
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 12,543 Gateshead, UK
Capo de La Cosa Nostra
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 12,543
Gateshead, UK
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I liken this racial profiling business to getting checked for knives and drugs in a nightclub over here. They've started to introduce it. Just last night, in fact, my mate was searched very, very thoroughly on his way into the club. He looked like a "thug" more than he did a student, I suppose, and I suppose I often do too. But he got checked because of the way he looked last night.
There's another nightclub nearby that checks everyone. It means the queues are long and entry is slow, but I feel much safer and better walking into that place knowing everyone's been checked, not just people who "look" dangerous, which is easy to do and easy not to do.
It's not a case of me saying, "Well, look, I don't have anything on me so I don't see why I should be checked." It's a case of, if I want to gain entry into the club, I've got to go by their profiling system - and I'd prefer an all-encompassing one, or none at all, than a lottery based bias(however you wish to base it on "probability").
...dot com bold typeface rhetoric. You go clickety click and get your head split. 'The hell you look like on a message board Discussing whether or not the Brother is hardcore?
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Re: Airport Security
[Re: Double-J]
#395845
05/25/07 10:34 AM
05/25/07 10:34 AM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 11,797 Pennsylvania
klydon1
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 11,797
Pennsylvania
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Like I said, I think that the system needs to be increased across the board.
But it's also painstakingly clear that there is a better chance that someone who is a Muslim/Arab is more likely to blow up the plane than the 85-year-old white grandma, so we shouldn't be blind to that either. Not saying don't check them both - wouldn't be prudent at this juncture - just saying to use your head. Certainly, I would agree that the grandma is less likely to be a terrorist, but I also think that the overwhelming majority of young Arab or Muslim males travelling on airlines is doing so for work or pleasure. Fortunately, without racial profiling we haven't had a commercial flight blown up since 9/11 (knock on wood). I think that because of the security measures implemented after the attacks, we have deterred, if not thwarted, some attempts at terror. I honestly don't fly much and don't know enough about the airline industry to suggest what more can be done to maintain and improve vigilance.
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Re: Airport Security
[Re: klydon1]
#395879
05/25/07 01:12 PM
05/25/07 01:12 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,098 Existential Well
svsg
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,098
Existential Well
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I too am not a frequent flier, but I have seen the security at big airports like Dallas and Chicago in US, London and Mumbai. The security check in India is pretty poor, with a lot of flagged stuff not being detected. But in US and London, it is amazing. You cannot take anything with you which they don't want you to. I have missed my connecting flights in Chicago twice flying from India, with all the elaborate security checks. They basically make you unpack everything in your hand baggage, separate the liquids and put in a separate cover, put your laptop in a separate tray, all metallic objects, cellphones, shoes, etc separately. On top of all this, the immigration guys take my finger prints when I leave and enter. Infact, even before i was granted visa as a student, they had my finger prints taken at the US consulate in India. That means even if they reject my visa and I were never to enter US, they would still have my finger prints recorded. Now talk of the statistics! How many Hindu males from India (the demographic I fit in) have blown up buildings in US? If I am not mistaken, a UK citizen neither needs a visa nor is he/she finger printed in US. Guys who worry about being extra poilitically correct, don't worry at all. Profiling is in place already. My room-mate's friend was called for separate questioning twice at airport because of his looks. My room-mate does acknowledge that his friend looks a little suspicious, but hey that is not his fault! I think the security at US airports is sufficiently elaborate. I personally don't mind being subjected to whatever security measures, if it makes other travellers comfortable. But passengers complaining to airline staff about some arab looking passengers behaving suspiciously (as it happened a couple of times) is a deadly combination of paranoia, prejudice and racism. If you look at them suspiciously, they are going to behave differently than normal The security should be left to airport authorities and not passengers and airline staff.
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Re: Airport Security
[Re: Don Cardi]
#395885
05/25/07 02:08 PM
05/25/07 02:08 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,098 Existential Well
svsg
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,098
Existential Well
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The security should be left to airport authorities and airline staff. It was on the morning of September 11th 2001. First of all, you haven't quoted me right, I am not even in favor of airline staff looking at security, I want only airport staff to do that. Secondly, the security after 9/11 is way tighter than what it was before. So, you can trust the airport security now, even if there was a lapse before. At anyday better than some racist passenger who knows well that any alarm raised will definitely be attended to with utmost importance.
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Re: Airport Security
[Re: olivant]
#395922
05/25/07 06:22 PM
05/25/07 06:22 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,854 Milky Way
Enzo Scifo
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,854
Milky Way
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If this system of racial profiling would be effective when it would be implantated in airport security, I would be in favor of it. If that is the cost of preventing acts of terror to happen, then screw political correctness.
However, I sincerely doubt the effectiveness of this system. First of all, making such a system operational, actually carrying it out the way some people want it to, right now, looks quite impossible. What's more, even if operational, it wouldn't give the results that were planned.
See, we can act as smart as we want, but at the end of the day, we still follow a guy who fucks himself with kebab skewers.
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