No one said you did. You did however point out that, like I said in my last post, that the vast majority of Muslims are not terrorists.

Then, you bring up Christian fundamentalists, to then say that there is a small percentage that could commit terror.

What was your point if it wasn't to infer that Christians, or some other group, is just as likely to commit an act of terror, even if that is contrary to what we've established in this thread?




Not directly, but inherently.



I would think sometimes = sometimes, and rarely = rarely.

I didn't think we needed a huge definition for those terms.



But its not! You asked me to show you where in the Pew study it said 25%. I did.

It isn't out of context, it is accurate.



I'm not twisting the argument. I WANT YOU TO TELL ME WHAT POSSIBLE JUSTIFICATION YOU APPARENTLY SEE FOR BLOWING UP THE PASSENGERS ON AN AIRPLANE.



I'd respond that way if there was any.



Then we agree.



If they want the system changed, start giving up those who are spreading hate in their communities, those who are planning attacks like the one at JFK, etc.

It isn't racist. It's based on the fact that radical Muslims have committed the most heinous acts of terror against America since the USS Cole bombing. We're using common sense, not racism.

For the record, I could care less about tolerance.

Uh, yeah. I guess I forgot when that one got ratified.

Oh, it didn't? Whooah.




So I just want to be clear here - you'd rather see people die than inconvenience a few people getting through baggage check, right?



You're right, we wouldn't want to offend, nay, stop the people who are trying to kill us.

Feel free to slit our throats, rape our wives, because, after all, we don't want to piss you off.




I fail to see how we can put freedom of speech on par with suicide bombing airplanes, but whatever floats your boat...



Yeah, not pissing off Muslims.

How's that working out for France right now?

Oh, yeah. Silly.



So by what you've said above...we should eliminate casualties by not pissing off the gunmen when they point the gun at our head?

Am I following you here?



We're not going to start putting Muslims in camps, Christ. This is airport security.



Airplanes are private companies (not counting the recent federal bail-outs). The NFTA and airport security aren't, but again, I don't see how you can say that we don't have the right to screen people based upon this system.



Congrats on finally reading the first post in the thread.



Bingo! Give the man a cigar!



Err...yeah.

Except for all terrorist attacks against the U.S. since 2001.

Not much of a trend though, right?



Personally, I'd line them up outside the airport, and televise them being executed by firing squad.

Or, better yet, behead them, and distribute DVD copies of it across the globe.




I'd settle for a logical argument, but it doesn't look like I'll see any of that either...

Now you're splitting hairs.

Look, anything is possible. There have been many documented cases of foreigners that have come into this country legitimately, established themselves in the country and in their community, and then 10 - 15 years later they were part of a terrorist organization.

You know what, let's cut the bullshit here and call a spade a spade. OK?

Middle eastern extremists have been responsible for many attacks against the western world over the years. Without looking up statistics I'll go out on a limb and say that in the last 20 -30 years or so, a majority of terrorist related attacks or incidents were carried out or planned by terrorists who are or were middle eastern.

For land's sake, they attack and kill people right in their own countries! They carry out suicide bombings in their own middle eastern nations.

I don't remember the last time that I turned on the news and saw that an Italian from Brooklyn walked into the market and blew up the place. I don't recall picking up a newspaper recently that wrote about a Jewish man walking onto a bus in Queens and blowing up the bus.

Yet you cannot deny that these types of terrorist acts are almost a regular occurance in many middle eastern nations.

But I did witness two planes, overtaken by middle eastern men, driven into two skyscrapers. I did turn on the TV and see that a middle eastern television network had a kid's show airing with a Mickey mouse look alike telling the children that they should hate the Jews and the Americans.

I haven't seen any of those kinds of shows on American television.

Does this mean that ALL middle eastern people or that ALL Muslims are bad people, or are terrorists? ABSOLUTELY NOT.

But unfortunately for those people, others from their region of the world have continually carried out acts of terrorism against their own nations as well as other nations. And unfortunately for those inoccent people of the world that are Muslim or of Middle Eastern decent, their own kind, on a very large scale, have declared war on the rest of the non believers and continue to try and attempt to devistate our country and destroy our children and thier future.

Do I hate ALL middle eastern people because of what a sect of their kind have done over the years and continue to try and do? OF COURSE NOT.

But, if I'm in an airport and a middle eastern man starts praying in the middle of the terminal, or decides to use his cell phone as we are getting ready to take off, or walks around the the building that I may be at taking photos of the entrance, you bet your sweet ass that I'm going to profile him and inform the authorities of what I am witnessing.

Call it whatever you want. Racial profiling, discrimination. I don't care.

I call it survival. I call it common sense.

DJ - Your responses are getting really weak, and you're just starting to completely overlook comparisons and contradict yourself. I'm debating with myself whether or not its worth picking that last post apart.

Terrorist Attacks within the United States or against Americans abroad over the last 27 years. How many were carried out by middle eastern extremists and how many were carried out by non middle eastern extremists? :

______________________________________________

1979
Nov. 4, Tehran, Iran: Iranian radical students seized the U.S. embassy, taking 66 hostages. 14 were later released. The remaining 52 were freed after 444 days on the day of President Reagan's inauguration.

1982
Lebanon: Thirty US and other Western hostages kidnapped in Lebanon by Hezbollah. Some were killed, some died in captivity, and some were eventually released. Terry Anderson was held for 2,454 days.

1983
April 18, Beirut, Lebanon: U.S. embassy destroyed in suicide car-bomb attack; 63 dead, including 17 Americans. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.

Oct. 23, Beirut, Lebanon: Shiite suicide bombers exploded truck near U.S. military barracks at Beirut airport, killing 241 marines. Minutes later a second bomb killed 58 French paratroopers in their barracks in West Beirut.

Dec. 12, Kuwait City, Kuwait: Shiite truck bombers attacked the U.S. embassy and other targets, killing 5 and injuring 80.

1984
Sept. 20, east Beirut, Lebanon: truck bomb exploded outside the U.S. embassy annex, killing 24, including 2 U.S. military.
Dec. 3, Beirut, Lebanon: Kuwait Airways Flight 221, from Kuwait to Pakistan, hijacked and diverted to Tehran. 2 Americans killed.

1985
April 12, Madrid, Spain: Bombing at restaurant frequented by U.S. soldiers, killed 18 Spaniards and injured 82.
June 14, Beirut, Lebanon: TWA Flight 847 en route from Athens to Rome hijacked to Beirut by Hezbollah terrorists and held for 17 days. A U.S. Navy diver executed.

Oct. 7, Mediterranean Sea: gunmen attack Italian cruise ship, Achille Lauro. One U.S. tourist killed. Hijacking linked to Libya.

Dec. 18, Rome, Italy, and Vienna, Austria: airports in Rome and Vienna were bombed, killing 20 people, 5 of whom were Americans. Bombing linked to Libya.

1986
April 2, Athens, Greece:A bomb exploded aboard TWA flight 840 en route from Rome to Athens, killing 4 Americans and injuring 9.
April 5, West Berlin, Germany: Libyans bombed a disco frequented by U.S. servicemen, killing 2 and injuring hundreds.

1988
Dec. 21, Lockerbie, Scotland: N.Y.-bound Pan-Am Boeing 747 exploded in flight from a terrorist bomb and crashed into Scottish village, killing all 259 aboard and 11 on the ground. Passengers included 35 Syracuse University students and many U.S. military personnel. Libya formally admitted responsibility 15 years later (Aug. 2003) and offered $2.7 billion compensation to victims' families.

1993
Feb. 26, New York City: bomb exploded in basement garage of World Trade Center, killing 6 and injuring at least 1,040 others. In 1995, militant Islamist Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman and 9 others were convicted of conspiracy charges, and in 1998, Ramzi Yousef, believed to have been the mastermind, was convicted of the bombing. Al-Qaeda involvement is suspected.

1995
April 19, Oklahoma City: car bomb exploded outside federal office building, collapsing wall and floors. 168 people were killed, including 19 children and 1 person who died in rescue effort. Over 220 buildings sustained damage. Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols later convicted in the antigovernment plot to avenge the Branch Davidian standoff in Waco, Tex., exactly 2 years earlier.

Nov. 13, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: car bomb exploded at U.S. military headquarters, killing 5 U.S. military servicemen.

1996
June 25, Dhahran, Saudi Arabia: truck bomb exploded outside Khobar Towers military complex, killing 19 American servicemen and injuring hundreds of others. 13 Saudis and a Lebanese, all alleged members of Islamic militant group Hezbollah, were indicted on charges relating to the attack in June 2001.

1998
Aug. 7, Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania: truck bombs exploded almost simultaneously near 2 U.S. embassies, killing 224 (213 in Kenya and 11 in Tanzania) and injuring about 4,500. 4 men connected with al-Qaeda 2 of whom had received training at al-Qaeda camps inside Afghanistan, were convicted of the killings in May 2001 and later sentenced to life in prison. A federal grand jury had indicted 22 men in connection with the attacks, including Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden, who remained at large.

2000
Oct. 12, Aden, Yemen: U.S. Navy destroyer USS Cole heavily damaged when a small boat loaded with explosives blew up alongside it. 17 sailors killed. Linked to Osama bin Laden, or members of al-Qaeda terrorist network.

2001
Sept. 11, New York City, Arlington, Va., and Shanksville, Pa.: hijackers crashed 2 commercial jets into twin towers of World Trade Center; 2 more hijacked jets were crashed into the Pentagon and a field in rural Pa. Total dead and missing numbered 2,9921: 2,749 in New York City, 184 at the Pentagon, 40 in Pa., and 19 hijackers. Islamic al-Qaeda terrorist group blamed. (See September 11, 2001: Timeline of Terrorism.)

2002
June 14, Karachi, Pakistan: bomb exploded outside American consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 12. Linked to al-Qaeda.

2003
May 12, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: suicide bombers killed 34, including 8 Americans, at housing compounds for Westerners. Al-Qaeda suspected.

2004
May 29–31, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists attack the offices of a Saudi oil company in Khobar, Saudi Arabia, take foreign oil workers hostage in a nearby residential compound, leaving 22 people dead including one American.
June 11–19, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists kidnap and execute Paul Johnson Jr., an American, in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. 2 other Americans and BBC cameraman killed by gun attacks.
Dec. 6, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia: terrorists storm the U.S. consulate, killing 5 consulate employees. 4 terrorists were killed by Saudi security.

2005
Nov. 9, Amman, Jordan: Suicide bombers hit 3 American hotels, Radisson, Grand Hyatt, and Days Inn, in Amman, Jordan, killing 57. Al-Qaeda claimed responsibility.

2006
Sept. 13, Damascus, Syria: an attack by four gunman on the American embassy was foiled.

_____________________________________

Not just as likely. It is clear that muslims are more likely to be terrorists against America than other groups. I have told this several times. But I also gave you the disease example to show that 99-1 number can be misleading. I also said that a white/christian american could be convinced/coerced/threatened to to an act of terror. It includes the possiblity of an Al-quaeda guy threatening the lives of entire family of a person, if he were not to do a specific act indirectly leading to terror - say like photographing some building/bridge without being suspected as a terrorist. I am not saying it happened. I am saying it is possible (remember 12 angry men?)


It is clearly out of context to me. If I were given a multiple choice question, with rarely/sometimes as one of the options, I should also be given a column to describe that option as is customary with surveys that have such subjective answers. Even if the survey had it, it wasn't published. So as credible and prestigious the survey is, the information we have to draw such stock conclusions as that one journalist did, is woefully insufficient.


I don't know. I didn't even think that anyone could justify Hiroshima (whether or not I agree with them) until recently. None of my islamic friends think suicide bombing is justified rarely/sometimes. So I don't have a way of knowing what muslims in general think. And a survey like this (or atleast the news item based on it) is so carelessly worded to add to the existing misconceptions.




Giving up?
You are saying as though Al-qaeda discusses their plans with ordinary muslims like my friends that I mentioned. What can a muslim american citizen do to improve the situation without having to give up his/her civil liberties and undergoing needless humiliations? First of all some are trying to club the innocent muslims into the same category as the terrorists, by asking them to undergo extra hassles because of race. On top of that, you accuse them of not giving up terrorists, as though they are actively involved in all criminal activities. It is just the image of muslims as some kind of barbaric race, that is making people imagine that they cannot lead a decent, hardworking life like any other race. Prejudice in its peak.

Now that I pointed out that all the statistics you have been quoting are all exaggerated and out of context, you want to go back to your argument without dealing with specifics? I asked you a list that will catch criminals and not trouble innocents. You know what, you have given a lot of bullshit. Let's cut that first. An arab man praying in terminal or talking on cellphone before take-off are suspicious behavior? All devout muslims pray wherever they are in the direction of Mecca, 5 times a day. There are muslim students in my research lab who pray in the lab at university. I am an athiest, so I don't care. But I don't think they should be treated with suspicion for that. And talking on cell-phone before takeoff? That should be the silliest point? Please, let us call a spade a spade. Yo are talking bullshit and I don't want to continue this with you. Draw whatever conclusion you want. I can only fight some amount of irrationality at a time. Such gross racism/xenophobia is beyond my patience to deal with. Enjoy your sweet little success with DJ.

Of course they don't discuss their plans with the average Muslim person. But you cannot deny that there have been many cases in the past several years where some teachers in Mosques were arrested because of their ties to terrorist organizations. Does that mean that the other Muslims who went their to serve Allah are also guilty? Not at all. TRhe only thing that they may be guilty of was turning a blind eye to what was being taught right in their houses of worship.

So please don't sit there and tell me that some of these radical teachers who were proven to have terrorist ties were NOT preaching extremism in those Mosques! People of the Muslim communities that were subject to having these extremists removed from their Mosques have admitted themselves, after the fact though, that they were being taught extremism by some of these teachers. If that was the case then why not come forward and turn in the teacher who is preaching fanaticism and extremism?

The Al Farouq mosque in Brooklyn helped raise millions of dollars for al Qaeda. Omar Abdul-Rahman, the blind shiek, was preaching hatred and extremism for many years at three mosques in the New York area. Yet no one from those Mosques went to the authorities to report what was being said by him in those Mosques.

Surely there were innocent Muslims who went to those Mosques. Where were they in defending what their religion is really supposed to be about? Where were they in turning in a guy like Rahman because of the distorted teachings that he was preaching in their Mosques?

I think that's what DJ is talking about.

AHHHHH. And it happens again! What looked to be a respectful and decent debate is once again turned into a personal attack and a pissing contest. It's a shame. I had hoped that those days were gone and thought that I could once again get back into some mature, intelligent and respectful debates.

Obviously, by your last post, I was wrong.

Pissing contests are fun if you have a plate of jalapenos next to you.

A pissing contest is useless without a Keg of beer.

Or cheesefries from Outback

Grand, grand suggestion. I'll bring the straws and jalapenos, you provide the keg (you're richer than me).

Here's a photo of Capo when he finally comes to the states and let's me buy him a Keg :



And me after paying for Capo's Keg!

And I won't mind a bit.

Capo,

Don't forget to pledge you're ever-ending loyalty to Don Cardi.

I actually just had a pissing contest with myself.

I lost.