My opinion on the matter is that when Rocco was approached by Michael and told that he would do the hit in the airport, he knew Michael figured out he was a traitor because there was no possible escape from the bullets of "half the FBI" at the airport.

Now I do not think this has anything to do with redemption in the usual sense of that term. I don't even think Pentangelli's choice has to do with redemption, or going out with honor. It's a deal. Indeed this is how Tom puts it to Frankie. Frankie kills himself because he is getting something tangible in return: "When a plot against the emperor failed, their families were always given a chance to keep their fortunes." Frankie then says "only if they [the plotters] killed themselves." At this exact moment Tom chucks his cigar and extends his hand as a sign that he got what he came for and he's now leaving -- Frankie gets my point: he kills himself, and in exchange we take care of everything he leaves behind. "That was a good break, a nice deal."

To your question, "Was Rocco sent on this mission unaware that he would be killed? Unaware that Michael was setting him up for betraying him?" -- I think Rocco must have known, as soon as Michael approached him to assign the Roth hit to him (a conversation which necessarily occured but is not shown on screen), that he was a dead man. Why? Tom already gives us the reason in the earlier "Difficult, not impossible" conversation: when Roth gets to the airport he'll be swarmed by customs and half of the FBI. This little conversation is truly remarkable: after Tom notes this fact, it's now understood by all four men in the room that whoever is later approached by Michael to do that hit is not coming home. What drama!

Now I think that you are reaching a bit.



If that is the case than what benefit was it for Rocco to take the assignment? Why even bother showing up at the airport if you know that your boss is sending you on a suicide mission because he knows that you betrayed him?

With all due respect, your argument is weakening with each explaination that you give.



Yes, it was a deal. But it was a deal presented to Pentangeli out of respect, out of understanding that he was duped into thinking that Michael tried to have him killed. A deal to let Frankie off the hook which allowed him to regain his family honor. A deal that said, "we understand why you almost testified against Michael, but it cannot be forgiven, so here is a way out with honor."

And Frankie took it to redeem his family's honor.

Yes, to redeem his family's honor, but also, imho, to guarantee the safety of his brother.

Let me outline the premise that sits at the bottom of my argument:

Michael approaches you, and says, "I'm giving you the Roth hit. When Roth gets off the plane, he'll immediately be surrounded by armed customs men and half the FBI. You'll dress up as a reporter so you can get close to him, and kill him." Unspoken words: "It is obvious to me and you that there is absolutely no chance that you will make it out of that airport. On the day of the hit, your life is over. After you shoot Roth, only a miracle will prevent you from being shot dead by the FBI."

When someone approaches you with this order, what are they saying?

Actually he guaranteed the safety and honor of his brother the moment he changed his testimony at the hearings.


The meeting with Hagen was to save HIS honor and to make sure that his family would be taken care of for life.

The first scene were Rocco is seen limping is when he is galumphing down Celemnzas driveway ' in the wooden bumpa's scene ', is when he is given the Carlo hit. Any one in the family has to know that there would be a time either when sent on a hit or just walking around the neighborhood that they have a chance of getting whacked either by a rival family or the cops or when you double cross your boss. I feel that Rocco was sent on this mission was that he was not as valuable to Mike as Neri was. Neri didn't report to anybody but Mike, unlike every other button, who had to go through someone else to report info to Mike. Neri's importance, closeness, reliability and trust by MIke can be seen in all 3 movies. Mike has Neri take care of business were Mike knows there is no room for error. By that I dont mean that all of the business undertaken ( no pun intended ) has any room for error, but the business that Mike has every one but Neri take care of, surely Mike knows that there is some room for error. Neri's former job as a cop made him more cautious and calculating, which Mike used and knew how to put to work. Neri was truely Mike's right hand man. Mike gave Neri the most important jobs where there was no room for error. Probably the only reason that Mike took the ancient button to Cuba to whack Ola and (attempting whacking ) of Roth is that Mike knew that that trip would be one way for his bodyguard. Neri was to valuable to have something happen to him, Mike had plans for Neri. The only time in the 3 movies that Mike gets mad at Neri is when Vince is given the nod by Neri and Connie to whack Zasa. Mike knows by giving Neri the look ( and the tone of voice that he uses ) that he gives him after learning of the hit is that Mike knows deep down that it was done with good intention, but also that neither Neri or Connie knew that Mike needed and wanted more information from Zasa - who was pulling his strings and his intentions.

They're telling me that I am going on a suicide mission. NOW, if I actually was the one who betrayed the boss who is sending me on this suicide mission, than I am not showing up that day. If I know that I am a traitor and now figure that my boss knows it to, if I refuse to carry out the order, I am a dead man. If I carry out the order, I am a dead man. So I accept the order and then run for the hills.

However it didn't play out that way. It actually was Rocco who told Mike that getting to Roth would be "difficult, but not impossible."

So it's obvious, by his own words, that Rocco figured that he could pull it off. And If he did pull it off, he would be bigger and better than Neri ever was and then Michael would have to at least treat him as an equal to Neri.


Rocco was expendable. Neri was not.

I should start by saying that this exchange is very beneficial to me. I've been away from the board for quite a while, and I'm glad I'm back on.

To [2] & [3], I think we must take into account Turnbull's correct observation that Rocco had no choice but to say it was a doable hit. Turnbull wrote:

"Michael, the old manipulator, gave Rocco no choice. Put yourself in his shoes:

--In the boathouse, Neri reclines in the chair and leads the discussion on Roth. Rocco stands guard, like the security guard he's become (when he's not a waiter, feeding Johnny Ola's men).
--After Michael brutally humiliated Tom about his job offer and mistress (watch Neri smirk; he was obviously the source of that info), he then says he wants Roth's plane met.
--Tom, true to form, falls right back into character: "Impossible...like assassinating the President." Sets stage for another humiliation: "Y'know, Tom, you surprise me...if there's one thing that's certain...it's that you can kill anyone."
--And then Michael turns and says, "Rocco?" He doesn't say, "Al?" He says, "Rocco?"

Now, what's Rocco going to say? "Uh, Mike, uh, I agree with Tom: impossible"?? After Tom was humiliated giving the "impossible" answer? Not a chance! Michael gave him no options."

Now this doesn't necessarily mean that Rocco was lying here. Also, just because he says it's difficult, but not impossible, it doesn't mean he's at this moment volunteering for the hit. He is just answering a question: is killing Roth possible? If he said, "I think I can do it myself," that would be different. But to infer that Rocco's statement was meant as self-enlistment for the hit is a stretch. Again, he's only answering a question, and as Turnbull observes there was only one answer he could give, whether that answer was his true opinion or not.

There is a lingering problem for me here. You seem to agree that objectively speaking the Roth hit is a suicide mission. Do I understand you correctly in thinking that in your view Rocco thought he could outmaneuver "half the FBI" in an airport and make it out alive? I think Rocco would know better than that. And if he thought there was 0.0000001% chance of getting away alive, did he really think it was still worth a shot if it meant supplanting Neri? This is a tough sale for me as well, as it's not the calculation of a businessman -- "All our people are businessmen -- their loyalty is based on that."

Regarding [1], there are things that can be done to get the guy to "show up" on the day of the hit. Firstly, you assign him to the job on that day, not before -- an old trick of clever ringleaders of conspiracies. The other aspect of my little theory is that Rocco is given a Pentangelli type deal. "You have to die, now there are two ways we can do this: Neri blows your head off right now, or, you do me this 'service' (kill Roth), and in exchange . . . ." Now what is the "in exchange"? Here I admit I'm really speculating, but perhaps not too wildly: wouldn't Rocco have had a family, like Pentangelli did?

Rocco was not responding to a hypothetical or impersonal question about whether or not Roth could be killed. Nor was he thinking that perhaps someone else could be engaged to do the killing. The operative premise--the one that set off Tom's reply and Michael's humiliation of Tom--was "I want it [Roth's plane] met." Michael said, "Rocco?" Rocco had to know that Michael intended him to meet the plane.
I think you're having difficulty believing that anyone would "volunteer" for what seemed certain to be a suicide mission. You and I wouldn't, but you and I aren't Rocco--a guy who had been brought along by Clemenza in the ways of old-time Mafia obedience; who was losing status in the family to Neri; who was put on the spot by his boss after the boss thoroughly humiliated his "brother"; and who may have seen (or rationalized) in this mission a glimmer of a chance to get away with it and reinstate himself in Michael's estimation.

And if he didn't kill himself, do you believe that his brother would not have been bothered?

I really do. I believe that once Frankie recanted his earlier testimony, his brother's honor and safety had been restored. Tom even turns to him and tells him in italian that his (Vincenzo's) family's honor is ok.

Okay, I'll buy that. Frankie did do the right thing by Michael, in the end, by recanting his testimony.

There is just too much supposition here. Such supposition is based on the belief that Rocco was a traitor. That's going a little too far.

Just to shift gears for a moment: any takers for explaining the significance of the fact that Rocco hands Michael the "orange from Miami," and that he is wearing an orange jacket?

Well yeah... BUT... he surely planned on testifying..."there is more people than a ballgame in here".... if he had NOT seen his brother with Michael. He would be Mr. Cheddar

I am in the minority here but... I think Rocco made a business decision. He lost because of it then spends the rest of his Corleone life trying to make up for it.

I think Michael suspected him. But wasnt sure. Because it was business. I think Michael felt safe. Rocco knew that he made a bad business decision. Michael held it over him, HARD. Rocco was from that point on forever loyal. I think it was one of the most dangerous "chess" games Michael played in the movie.... along with the constant manuevering with Roth.

Ok. So he let Rocco slide because it was family business, but he ordered the death of his own brother to protect the family business.

I'm completely with Olivant here. "Friends close, enemies closer" is a strategem for when you know your enemy and you have time and wherewithal to play him--as Sonny did with Paulie, Vito and Michael did with Carlo, and Michael did with Roth. The Tahoe shooting didn't qualify. Unknown and unexpected assassins, who had to either know or strongly suspect that Kay and/or the kids would be in his bedroom, attacked with machineguns. While Kay and the kids weren't targets, the would-be killers had no compunctions about wiping out anyone who got between their bullets and Michael. They were assisted by an unknown person "very close." And they'd almost certainly try again. It was a situation, as Michael told Tom, that was "life and death."
Under those circumstances, if Michael'd had any inkling that Rocco was involved, Rocco would have been dead sooner rather than later.

It was the smart move... Rocco was always smarter

Take a chill pill... you or I cant know WHAT he(Michael) thought about Rocco.

Bulletin board are for debate of opinions... and sometimes they are about "what if's" or "other" possible scenario's.

Fredo WAS more dangerous than Rocco. IMO.

Thank you Scarfather, for enlightining me about what an internet bulletin board is for! I don't know how I would have been able to continue on here had you not joined this board and enlightened me with your extensive knowledge and experience in regards to internet bulletin boards!

You are the man!

You are welcome!
Anything I can do to help.

Olivant & Turnbull: Don Cardi raised this objection already and I tried to address it earlier. Let me add a few things and restate my points in a perhaps more convincing way:

1) When the Tahoe hit fails, Michael vanishes, so another hit that could endanger his family is not a problem. True, Michael orders that Kay and the kids not be allowed to leave the compound, but if this fact does anything, it supports my point. The traitor is someone "close to us, inside," and yet Michael orders his family to stay on the compound -- with the as yet unknown traitor -- when he's away.

2) The "keep your enemies close" strategy is always extremely risky. It is to gloss over the real facts to say that Michael was at liberty to play around with Roth this way as though in a liesurely and low risk fashion. Michael knows Roth tried to kill him, so going to Cuba was extremely dangerous. (Even going to visit Roth in Miami was dangerous, as is clear from Michael's very cautious approach to Roth's front door.) He could be whacked at almost any time from the moment he landed in Havanna -- the plan to do it "neatly" when Michael was in a military car was the least risky move for Roth. Sure, Roth would have liked to have gotten the 2 million first, but a guy who would give 4 million just to take a piss without it hurting would certainly pass up 2 million if it meant getting rid of Michael.

3) Not long after the Havana operation fails, Roth and the Rosatos are "on the run." As I already noted, this changes the whole dynamic of the situation for a would-be traitor. That is, you don't try to kill your boss for another boss, when a) your boss is now back on top ("Michael, you've won") and b) the other boss is on the run and unable to provide you with the same incentive to turn on your own boss as he could previously.

4) If, as I believe, Rocco was the man helping Roth, he would not recruit his own men, with all their "machine guns," to help him kill Mike. Why? If he approaches one of them and makes this proposition, he gives the guy he makes the proposition to an opportunity to replace him as Caporegime. This guy will pretend to go along, and then go straight to Mike with this information. Nothing Rocco could offer him could outweigh what Mike would do for him in return for this information. Machiavelli puts it well when speaking of men who want to recruit others to kill a tyrant: "as soon as you disclose your intent . . .you give him the means with which to become content." [Addition:] This, I presume, is why the two guys who turn up with their throats cut are not men who were part of the compound security detail.

The GF world will never know.

. ..you know what a haza is, Scarfather?

Hey 90caliber... thats where I was going with the Rocco theory. Great detail. Thanks.


"You tell 90caliber it is greatly appreciated"

Great debate guys.Ive enjoyed reading your thoughts and opinions on this matter.As for my two cents,i'll keep it short and sweet.

I dont think Rocco was the traitor.As others have pointed out,it would be a little silly giving Rocco so much freedom around the compound after the attempted hit on Michael.Michael was a mastermind remember.I think he would have come up with something better than biding his time with Rocco for so long and then sending him on a "suicide mission".Rocco obviously thought that after he wacks Roth that yes,its gonna be difficult getting away but not impossible.

This is a very enjoyable debate indeed.

Let me say that I think the Aussie-Turnbull-Olivant-Don Cardi, et al. argument is plausible. I don't deny that it could be right. Obviously I favor my own theory, but reasonable people can disagree, after all.

Now I don't see why it is "silly" for the mastermind Michael to give Rocco "so much freedom around the compound after the attempted hit," as you put it. Keep in mind these two crucial points:

1) After the attempted hit, Michael has nothing to worry about a traitor roaming free on the compound, because he, Michael, is not there. He's in Miami, then Cuba. Nothing silly here.

2) When the Havana operation fails, his worries about getting whacked by one of his own men (on Roth's order) are completely gone. Indeed, what would be silly is for one of Michael's men to whack him for Roth at this point. Why? The tide has turned: Michael is on top, Roth is "on the run," he's lost. A traitor will be a traitor for "business" reasons, i.e. the other boss can give me more than my own boss. With this in mind it is clear that at this point in the movie Michael has no worries that one of his own guys will whack him for Roth. There is nothing for the traitor to gain, and everything to lose. Notice also that at this point in the movie the compound no longer looks like an army base -- Fredo and Anthony are out fishing and having fun, etc.

"Anything I can do to help"

I'm rereading the novel after not having gone through it cover to cover for a long while, and I found the passage I was looking for: Rocco does have a wife and children (p. 105 of the hardcover 1st edition).

This one is still up for grabs. Any thoughts?