Why do you think Michael is so cold-hearted as Don? He wasn't like that before he became Don. His father nor any of his brothers were cold like him. Is it because of the death of Appollonia? The death of Sonny? His resentment of being in the family business?

What does everyone think?

Ace

I don't think he was ever the bubbly social butterfly type. Even before the shooting of Vito he was reserved. In the GII flashback scene of Vito's birthday, Sonny even introduced him as that droopy thing, which described his demeanor and personality.

However, the cumulative effect of a series of events gradually drained his humanity. The first event wasn't so much the shooting of Vito, but the ordeal in the hospital when he moved him into another room and confronted the hit men. Obviously, he grew colder after the murder of Solozzo and McCluskey, and the deaths of Sonny and Appolonia.

It is intersting to note that upon his return from Sicily to the end of GII, Michael doesn't crack a smile. He forces a smile in Havana when meeting the politicos and is told by Fredo that a particular judge does a mean cha cha, but that's pretty much it.

klydon, you are so right! Even Michael's marriage to Kay is more of a business arrangement. He waits until he's home, he's settled, he believes he's on the path to legitimacy, where a nice WASPy wife certainly can't hurt, and THEN he drives up to New Hampshire to propose. Forget that he left her without saying goodbye, that for years she called, visited the compound, sent letters. He waited until HE was ready.

I think that's a prime example of how Michael had walled himself off from the rest of humanity. He didn't ALLOW himself to feel. Truthfully, the only ones he loved anymore were his parents and his children. And in GF2, his children were more like possessions than anything else.

Do you remember Superman III I think it was where Superman split himself into two people and neither was like the original: one was meek and the other "dark". Well, that's the way I think of Fredo, Sonny, and Michael. Neither was a compete imitation of Vito. Each had certain characteristics of the Don. Fredo was the loving kid that Vito started out as (kind of like we all start out as); Sonny was the "I'm gonna get ya sucka after you wiped out my family" Vito, and Michael was the intelligent without warmth Vito. That's why Michael murdered his way out of situations rather than apply the Vito technique of the persuasion and a velvet glove. Thoughts?

All of the factors you cited, Ace. Plus, Klydon is right on in that flashback scene--the way young Michael says to Tom, " You...talked to my father...about my future" is as chilling as the scene where he says, "You're nothing to me now, Fredo."
However, in an (alas) deleted scene just before Vito gets shot, Michael and Kay are cavorting in a hotel room, and we see--for a brief moment--a happy-go-lucky, playful Michael. The contrast with the later Michael is amazing.

That was extremely well put!!

Which explains why it's so odd and hard to swallow that he somehow got much of it back by the time of GFIII!!!

Apple

Michael did not want to pursue the same lifestyle as his father and brothers. He was enroled in college and joined the army. Then based on the events of GFI he is thrust into the role as head of the Corleone family. This is something that he necessarily didn't want, but knows that he must do that thing to save the family.

The famous line in GFIII "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in" pretty much sums up Michael Corleone as a character. He is trying to not adapt the lifestyle of his father, but his efforts lead to events that make him a colder man.

In summary, Michael did not want to be Don, but realized it was necessary for the good of the family. I believe that partly explains the coldness of his character.

Now, Don, you mean to tell us that Mike could not have walked away from it all whenever he wanted to? If, as most of the posts (including yours) on this subject have Michael doing, he starts off as a nice college kid and veteran who altruistically volunteers to take up the mantle of leadership of his father's Mafia family, he could have put down that mantle anytime he wanted to. He got pulled back in because he just could not competely let go.

I disagree and would love to hear this discussed. From the moment the Don is shot I think we can 'visibly' on screen see his character adjusting to the role that he will later take. Mike makes up his mind almost immediately in the hospital scene that he will risk his life to defend his father/family just like he did for his country.

When Santino dies, his fate is sealed. I love watching the look on his face when learning of his brother's death. Is he mourning and shocked b/c of the death of Sonny? Or is it the death of his 'old self'. I think that's one of the reasons he snatches Kay up, to get a grasp on that past that will never be.

If he 'completely lets go' what in the world may become of his mother, brother, and sister etc??? Probably DANGEROUS and maybe impossible to get out.

I think the reason that he snatched Kay up immediately after his return from Sicily was to begin having a family - sons to carry on the family business. His proposal to Kay was passionless and business-like. She was seen merely as an instrument by which he could quickly achieve his goals. She brought respectability and compatability.

Klydon is right. The way he proposes to her sounds like he is making a business proposition. It is like he is pitching her, and he sounds completely disingenuous. I think Kay was worried enough about her biological clock to go along with him and start raising kids. I dont even think she believed him when he said the family would become legitimate.

DT- I think she DOES believe him. Remember, the last time she saw Michael was before his encounter with McClusky outside the hospital. She is clueless to the new Michael. Kay still sees him as the college boy who didn't want to be in the family business. I think she is convinced that although he's gotten involved, he is going to take over and make these sweeping changes because his father's way of doing things is over.

Actually, Michael does NOT move quickly to snatch up Kay. If you recall, he tells her he's been back more than a year before he looks her up. He waited until he was nice and settled, in spite of the fact that she had been trying to contact him for a loooooong time, and then he showed up on her doorstep. Talk about cold!!

Very true but I think he could have found anyone to continue his 'line'.
Again though, we see another visible on-screen example of his character change. His attitude toward Kay is soooo very different. She must have heard her biological clock ticking very loudly to not see how different a man he is.

I agree that Michael was never a very warm person, but IMO his coldness grows as he transitions throughout the movie.
Basically what I am saying is I don't believe when he first began as Don he would've been able to order Fredo's death. But by part II his heart was completely cold.
And everything and everyone in his life were just pieces in his chess game.

Ace

True. Even in his conversation with Anthony, in which the boy asks to accompany his father to Cuba, Michael's coldness is evident. Anthony says, "I can help you."

I always thought Michael's reply of "Someday" was the coldest moments of GII. His expression doesn't change; he lacks all paternal warmth as he envisions Anthony's future involvement in the family business.

My point almost exactly Kly. Of the kids, Michael is the brightest by far. As the novel says, not as bright as his father, but bright enough. But he does lack the the real concern for his family that Vito had. His reply to Anthony seeks to condemn Anthony to a life of iniquity and fratricide tops it all off. Throughout the film, Michael does not change; he emerges.

My point exactly Ace. I think Mike would have been a nice person and a well adjusted man had he not been forced to pick up the flag and lead the family out of hell.

I'm not so sure. I think that people have to have an innate capacity for anything that they eventually do. Mike set himself apart from the family early on and I think that's an indication of his ability to divorce his actions from feelings. You notice that in the flasback scene from GFII, he is sitting on one side of the table all alone and that is well before his family is threatened.

I really don't buy the popular notion that Michael is dragged kicking and screaming into the family business.

When he reaches the point of no return - the killings of McCluskey and Sollozzo - the family is very much intact. Vito is recovering, Sonny is alive, and Tom remains consigliere.

I'm not disputing that there were possible reasons for Michael to make the choice he did (fear for his father's life, lack of confidence in Sonny & Tom, etc.). But it was a CHOICE. It was not fate. Nothing was thrust upon him.

Like all of us, he had many layers and contradictions. But his choices show that, at the core, he was a cold-blooded man and chose a path that suited his nature.

I think the point of no return was the hospital scene. Had Mike not been there his father would have been dead. This angered him and triggered the change that led him to immediately suggest the shooting of McClusky and Sollozzo.

I am not saying Michael was FORCED into the family business. I agree 100% that it was his CHOICE. What I am saying is after he made that choice, his heart became colder and colder...

The point I am trying to make is although Mike was a pretty frigid person to begin with, and he DID CHOOSE to be in the family business, it took time for his heart to grow cold enough that he would order the death of his own brother.

Ace

First of all, the early scenes (especially with Kay) indicate that Michael was NOT a 'frigid person to begin with'.

Second, although he did order the death of his own brother, it wasn't because of 'frigidity'. It was because his brother betrayed him, betrayed the Family, and had to be punished.

Had Michael been all that 'frigid'...he would have ordered Fredo's death immediately after their boathouse discussion, not waited until after the death of their mother, and he definitely would NOT have reconciled with Fredo per Connie's plea.

Apple

Apple, I agree that Michael killed his brother because he betrayed the family, IMO Fredo deserved to be killed. I did not say Michael did those things because he was frigid, I said Mike may have been a little frigid to begin with. You can see this in the flashback scene at the end of part II, that was before his relationship with Kay.

I was just stating that Michael grew more cold-hearted the longer he was Don. I didn't say he did anything because he was frigid. He had reasons, but they were COLD calculated ones. I mean, come on, you have to have grown a little cold-hearted to kill your own brother, betrayed or not.

Ace

Mike set himself apart from the family early b/c 1.)went to college(this can be quite taxing on relations w/others who have not) 2.)vito in a sense wanted micheal to set himself apart the 'family' 3.) joining the marines and earning metals of valor while risking his life. (Risking his life on a level that Santino or any other wiseguy could never know about.)

AS FOR THE FLASHBACK:
My favorite scene of the entire Trilogy.
I RELATE TO MIKE FEELING ISOLATED FROM HIS FAMILY. My family will never understand why I feel the way I do about life, different times different crimes I guess.
Poor Mike, tried to tell his big brothers how he felt about life and Sonny tries to beat him up. No surprise that Fredo is the only one who gives him congrats. No surprise we see him sitting alone, he was alone.

As Don Corleone, what other reasons would you EXPECT him to have for the things he did, the orders he gave.

When his brother Santino served as 'acting' Don (and even before during the Solozzo meeting)...the actions he took were rooted in temprament and hot-headedness; emotion and revenge. We can see where it got both the Corleone Family and Sonny himself.

Why? Did being 'brothers' affect Fredo's decision to work with Roth against Michael? To speak out against the Family in defense of Moe Green?

Anyway...Michael had already professed that Fredo was 'nothing to him now'. Not a brother, not a friend. All brotherly feelings had gone right out the window.

Any reason he should not have felt that way?

Had anyone else done what Fredo did...the guy wouldn't have lived even that long.

I do agree though...that Michael became more coldhearted as the years went on, as loss after loss, betrayal after betrayal (including Kay's abortion) took their toll on Don Michael Corleone.

Apple

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AppleOnYa:
[QB] [QUOTE]

I do agree though...that Michael became more coldhearted as the years went on, as loss after loss, betrayal after betrayal (including Kay's abortion) took their toll on Don Michael Corleone.

Apple

It's one thing after another. Mike's character is the true "GREEK TRAGEDY" of the whole story. One hurdle after another comes along to knock him down.....Starting w/ the hospital scene in part 1 he is doing what he thinks is right(defending his 'family') but he is 'star crossed' from the beginning. Part 2 is a steady decline and hard to watch sometimes.

['star crossed lovers'--romeo and juliet]

Once again, I agree Fredo deserved what he got. He betrayed Michael and had to pay the price. My main point through all of this is that Michael's cold-heartedness grew througout the movie.

Ace

I never considered Mama 'dense'. In any case, Michael did not want his mother to endure the loss of another son.

As for the reconcilliation, I would think he went on with it more for Fredo's sake than Connie's, even though it was she who went to plead the case.

He could've just as easily refused.

Apple

I agree. I don't think Mama was dense at all. In the novel she tells Kay that she goes to mass each morning to pray for her husband so he "don't go down there." She knew her husband.

But this thing about Mike: he was, to use someone's term, a sociopath. He used murder as a method to achieve his ends as he perceived those ends. That perception helped to rationalize his actions. Yes, at some point the immorality of what he had done may have broken through to him. Call it lucidity if you will. But as Tom explained to Kay, you can't forgive treachery. Well, why can't you? Not forgiving is a choice and Micahel chose just about everything he did in his life.

And again, in what way does this make him different than his father, his brother, Hyman Roth, Barzini, or any other Don?

Because none of these people had a brother who turned traitor and had to be killed just as any traitor would?

Murder was a part of the business they had all chosen.
It was used by all as a method to achieve ends.

Apple