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Re: Tom Hagen As The Don
[Re: Don Cardi]
#416192
07/16/07 02:32 PM
07/16/07 02:32 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468 With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso
Consigliere to the Stars
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Consigliere to the Stars
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
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Italian no....Sicilian yes! Actually thats a great question, and it goes to the whole "nature vs. nurture" issue. Tom was sout in the streets as a kid, and you would think that would have made him a bit more cunning, and then he was raised by Vito, who had to have taught him a thing or two. I think his legal education and the fact that the German temperament obviously trumped the Irish, made Tom someone who was always looking for ways to mediate disputes. He never understood that in some instances among the mob there is no such thing as a "compromise."
"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"
"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."
"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."
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Re: Tom Hagen As The Don
[Re: Zaf-the-don]
#416317
07/16/07 06:14 PM
07/16/07 06:14 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,611 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,611
AZ
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Intriguing question, DC! As dt said, is it nature vs. nurture? I think it's "nurture." Circumstance, not country of origin of parents, put Tom where he was and made him what he was. Vito raised Tom not to be his successor, but to be a potential consigliere, or at least a bridge to the legitimate world--a guy whose smooth manner, eduction and conciliatory manner made him a good "public front" for the politicians, police officials (and movie moguls) that Vito needed to deal with. Vito sent him to law school, where he learned the art of conciliation. Vito taught him never to make a threat, etc. I believe that if Tom had been an orphan of Sicilian parents, and Sonny brought him home, and Vito raised him, he'd have turned out the same way because that's the way Vito wanted it.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Tom Hagen As The Don
[Re: Sicilian Babe]
#416371
07/16/07 09:20 PM
07/16/07 09:20 PM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,539 My own world.
whisper
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,539
My own world.
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Great thread.
I think Tom(had he been Italian) would have made a very successful Don.He would have conducted himself along the lines of Vito,therefor gaining Respect and love.Also as a previous Consigliere,he would have used those attributes to stay ahead of the rest. As for being as cunning as Michael,well no, he didn't have that killer instinct but he would always know whats good for business.
The hero and the coward both feel the same thing, but the hero uses his fear, projects it onto his opponent, while the coward runs. It's the same thing, fear, but it's what you do with it that matters. Cus D'Amato
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Re: Tom Hagen As The Don
[Re: Sicilian Babe]
#416512
07/17/07 09:34 AM
07/17/07 09:34 AM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773 Pittsburgh, PA
The Last Woltz
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773
Pittsburgh, PA
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I think that Tom's biggest flaw was his need for approval and love from his adopted family. The book delves into this a bit more, even describing a recurring nightmare that Hagen has of being homeless and blind, and his only comfort is waking up in Vito's house. This leads to a unquestioned loyalty to his adopted family and a need for their love and approval. Perhaps this stopped him from being too ruthless, perhaps it stopped him from being truly forceful in his advice to Sonny, Vito and Michael. If this same need drove him as a Don, then he would be a weak one. If Tom believes that the only thing keeping him safe and warm is Vito's succor then I would think, yes, that he would be very loyal. But I also think that would make him all the more ruthless when that source of comfort is threatened. Also, he seemed pretty forceful with Sonny. He yells at him on several occasions and successfully gets him to change his mind about killing Sollozzo (until Michael speaks up). I can't imagine Genco yelling at Vito, or dissuading him from a course of action. Tom certainly favored negotiation to an extreme, but I'm not sure it's because of the reasons you state. I wonder if Vito recognized Sonny's temper issues and consiously molded Tom into an overly conciliatory man as a counter-balance.
"A man in my position cannot afford to be made to look ridiculous!"
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Re: Tom Hagen As The Don
[Re: The Last Woltz]
#416514
07/17/07 09:39 AM
07/17/07 09:39 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,029 Texas
olivant
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,029
Texas
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I think that Tom's biggest flaw was his need for approval and love from his adopted family. The book delves into this a bit more, even describing a recurring nightmare that Hagen has of being homeless and blind, and his only comfort is waking up in Vito's house. This leads to a unquestioned loyalty to his adopted family and a need for their love and approval. Perhaps this stopped him from being too ruthless, perhaps it stopped him from being truly forceful in his advice to Sonny, Vito and Michael. If this same need drove him as a Don, then he would be a weak one. If Tom believes that the only thing keeping him safe and warm is Vito's succor then I would think, yes, that he would be very loyal. But I also think that would make him all the more ruthless when that source of comfort is threatened. Also, he seemed pretty forceful with Sonny. He yells at him on several occasions and successfully gets him to change his mind about killing Sollozzo (until Michael speaks up). I can't imagine Genco yelling at Vito, or dissuading him from a course of action. Tom certainly favored negotiation to an extreme, but I'm not sure it's because of the reasons you state. I wonder if Vito recognized Sonny's temper issues and consiously molded Tom into an overly conciliatory man as a counter-balance. Woltz, you hit the nail o nthe head. Tom operated under Vito's wing, using Vito's approach which was to minimize violence. The novel emphasiszes Vito's committment to reason (rajunah) and using violence only as a last resort.
"Generosity. That was my first mistake." "Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us." "Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
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Re: Tom Hagen As The Don
[Re: Turnbull]
#416664
07/17/07 03:07 PM
07/17/07 03:07 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296 Throggs Neck
pizzaboy
The Fuckin Doctor
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The Fuckin Doctor
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
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Sonny's handling of the furnace men did not altogether please Vito because Sonny handled it as the club, not as a rapier. One of Puzo's most felicitous phrases. I often used it at work to describe my approach to situations vs. my boss's approach--and why I wasn't the boss and she was. She? Your boss was a WOMAN? Aw geez, Edith, next thing you know they'll want the right to vote. I'm kidding, really.
"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
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Re: Tom Hagen As The Don
[Re: pizzaboy]
#428387
08/23/07 04:07 PM
08/23/07 04:07 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 36 USA
JMDII
Wiseguy
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Wiseguy
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 36
USA
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I think Tom would have been great Don. He is obviously intelligent enough. In part II micheal even gives him control over the Family while he is away.Mike obviously has faith in Tom's abilities. This also explains why Mike kept him out of the inner circle for a little while...he could ensure that Tom could be trusted.
JMD
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Re: Tom Hagen As The Don
[Re: Don Cardi]
#433649
09/11/07 10:54 AM
09/11/07 10:54 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468 With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso
Consigliere to the Stars
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Consigliere to the Stars
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
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Someone brought up a scenerio over in another topic which got me thinking. Had Hagen been born an italian, would he have made a good Don? Do you think that he would have done things differenty than Michael? If so, what? While Tom was the "acting Don" while Michael was traveling between Miami, New York and Cuba, he managed to pull off one of the greatest coups of the Trilogy, namely he compromised Geary. That was vintage Vito Corleone...mixing brutality with "reason" to accomplish something. This is the only time after Vito's death that we actually see the Corleone family GAIN political influence. He would not have made the deal with Roth in Cuba, but instead he would have consolidated the Corleone's position in Las Vegas, and in the years following he would have been in a position to sell all the Vegas holdings to MGM and the other huge corporations which bought it up in the 70's. In short, he would have made the Corleone family "completely legitimate." In fact, thinking about this shows that Michael really did not want to make the family "completely legitimate." If he did, all he had to do was tell Tom to make it happen, and he would have.
"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"
"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."
"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."
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Re: Tom Hagen As The Don
[Re: dontomasso]
#433708
09/11/07 01:23 PM
09/11/07 01:23 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,611 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,611
AZ
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I agree that compromising Geary was a great coup for the Corleones. But I think it was Michael's idea--or at least I don't think Tom would have had blanket approval to murder someone without Michael's prior approval. See this thread: http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthr...=true#Post36125And yes, Michael never really wanted to be totally legit. In the case of gambling, he could have been a totally legit casino owner in Nevada. But was he? Nope! He "owned or controlled three hotels," as Geary noted, but in his Senate testimony later, Michael said that he "owned some shares" in the hotels. Did he want to legitimately buy into the Tropigala? Nope! He sent Neri to muscle Klingman out of his interest. For that matter, he could have made a clean break with the "olive oil business" after moving to Nevada. But did he? Nope! We see him giving orders to Frankie and involving himself in territorial disputes with the Rosato brothers, who are into drugs and prostitution. Further down the road: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in," he complains--immediately after presiding over a Commission meeting.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Tom Hagen As The Don
[Re: dontomasso]
#433729
09/11/07 01:55 PM
09/11/07 01:55 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,611 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,611
AZ
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The first time Michael meets Geary is at Anthony's first communion, and that very night is the attempt on Michael's life. He leaves immediately, so there would never have been a time when Fredo could have told Michael that Geary was a regular at his whore house. Geary's statement to Tom re. the dead hooker: "We done it be-FOE-er," tells me that he was a regular at that brothel with that whore. Given his prominence as a US Senator, the manager likely would have taken due note of him the first time he showed up, and reported it to Fredo. First reaction: Fredo was too dumb to report Geary's presence at his brothel to Michael. But Fredo was just simple enough to see it as something that'd give him bragging rights. Remember how he bursts in on Michael while he's with Sonny's daughter Francesca and Gardiner Shaw, shouting, "Hey Mike, guess who's here? Frankie Five Angels!" I see him bursting in on Michael the first time he learned of Geary's peccadillos: "Hey Mikey, guess who's a regular at my joint? Senator Geary!"
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Tom Hagen As The Don
[Re: Turnbull]
#433781
09/11/07 03:08 PM
09/11/07 03:08 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468 With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso
Consigliere to the Stars
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Consigliere to the Stars
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
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First reaction: Fredo was too dumb to report Geary's presence at his brothel to Michael. But Fredo was just simple enough to see it as something that'd give him bragging rights. Remember how he bursts in on Michael while he's with Sonny's daughter Francesca and Gardiner Shaw, shouting, "Hey Mike, guess who's here? Frankie Five Angels!" I see him bursting in on Michael the first time he learned of Geary's peccadillos: "Hey Mikey, guess who's a regular at my joint? Senator Geary!"
Excellent point (and an excellent scene that should have not been cut). However once Michael left, Fredo could have just as easily bragged to Tom about how that important Senator he saw at the party wa a regular at the whorehouse. But putting aside whether this was a Michael plan or a Tom-Neri plan, how was Fredo "handled" for this? Tom tells Geary that if it had not been Fredo's place they could not help him, implying that Fredo had the sense to call Tom when the hooker died. I cannot believe whoever planned this murder/blackmail would have had Fredo very involved. BTW it seems hookers are exempt from Clemenza's "pain in the ass innocent bystanders" rule. The women who slept with Tattaglia and Geary now sleep with the fishes!
"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"
"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."
"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."
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Re: Tom Hagen As The Don
[Re: Don Cardi]
#435816
09/16/07 08:57 PM
09/16/07 08:57 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,224 New Jersey
AppleOnYa
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,224
New Jersey
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... Had Hagen been born an italian, would he have made a good Don? Do you think that he would have done things differenty than Michael? ... Had Hagen been 'born Italian', he most likely would've not ended up in the streets, befriended by Sonny and taken in by Vito and his wife, raised as their son and put through law school to eventually become consiglieri to the most powerful Family in organized crime. Would he have ended up a 'Don' and one day been a rival of his contemporary Michael Corleone? Probably not because his 'Italian' parents might very well have been friends of the Corleone Family. Even if Tom had become Don of another Family, he would not be compared to Michael because Sonny Corleone might not have died due in part to Tom's non-Genco/non-Sicilian lawyer's brain. CouldaWouldaShoulda. Here's one more to 'discussion for the sake of...'. Apple
A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
- THOMAS JEFFERSON
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Re: Tom Hagen As The Don
[Re: AppleOnYa]
#435998
09/17/07 11:26 AM
09/17/07 11:26 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468 With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso
Consigliere to the Stars
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Consigliere to the Stars
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
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Probably not because his 'Italian' parents might very well have been friends of the Corleone Family. Even if Tom had become Don of another Family, he would not be compared to Michael because Sonny Corleone might not have died due in part to Tom's non-Genco/non-Sicilian lawyer's brain. CouldaWouldaShoulda. Here's one more to 'discussion for the sake of...'. Apple Everyone knows that all Italians know each other personally, that only German-Irish people end up in the streets, and that creative speculation about fiction is just "woulda couldashoulda." Apple is going soft in the brain. I think she's turning into Cider.
"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"
"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."
"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."
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Re: Tom Hagen As The Don
[Re: olivant]
#436384
09/18/07 12:50 PM
09/18/07 12:50 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,611 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,611
AZ
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There are any number of conflicts within the criminal underworld. If they were all resolved by violence, there would not be any criminal underworld. Most are resolved through negotiation. Tom was made for negotiation. However, his murder credentials are quite in evidence. He was in on everything that Vito that resulted in harm to people and Vito harmed alot of people. That's very true. And, much as we like to think of regular wars between families (as in Clemenza telling Michael, "Ah, dat's all right, dese t'ings hafta happen every ten years or so--lets out the bad blood"), families would much rather negotiate than fight. Wars are expensive, interfere with business, are dangerous, and enhance the omnipresent opportunities for treachery. Most of the wars we read about in real life are within families, over leadership and territories.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Tom Hagen As The Don
[Re: Turnbull]
#436386
09/18/07 12:54 PM
09/18/07 12:54 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296 Throggs Neck
pizzaboy
The Fuckin Doctor
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The Fuckin Doctor
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
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There are any number of conflicts within the criminal underworld. If they were all resolved by violence, there would not be any criminal underworld. Most are resolved through negotiation. Tom was made for negotiation. However, his murder credentials are quite in evidence. He was in on everything that Vito that resulted in harm to people and Vito harmed alot of people. Most of the wars we read about in real life are within families, over leadership and territories. Absolutely! Most mob hits are over petty, inter-family bullshit. In the history of the American Mafia, there have only been a handful of "family vs. family" wars. But we are suckers for the written word, and love to but into it all.
"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
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