We should include Michael in the 12 Step Program. I'd like to be there when he gets to the First Step: "I admit that I was powerless..."

"Hello everyone. My name's Apple and I am the facilitator of this Godfatherholic group.

Yes, these black leather thigh high boots, this black leather bodice, and this riding whip is what I'll be wearing and using during our meetings.

Tonight we'll begin by your telling me why you think you are addicted to the Godfather. Remember. There is a right and a wrong reason. So, be careful. I'm pretty good with this whip. And remember also, I've cured bigger addicts than you Dontomasso."

There is no place to introduce myself, but I posted here about two or three years ago, and for some reason, stopped. But here I am again. And all I know about Fredo is that this is the guy who couldn't get his gun out in time to wing the two hitmen who tried to kill his father in GF1. Unless Moe Green, Johnny Ola or Meeetsah Beeg himself (Hyman Roth) grew him a pair, I doubt it was Fredo who killed the two hitmen in Vegas. For all anyone knows, it was Johnny. He'd been there that day, right?

DT, you bring up that fredo may have hired the hitters in gf 2, i have a few questions ( i'm not questioning your theory ) 1) if fredo did hire them, would'nt there be some kind of paper trail for fredo to cut them the money to them or would he have the funds avaialable to him to pay in cash? 2) if fredo did whack them how did he get the stones to whack them or did this come with the exposure he had with mike from gf1 to gf 2? 3) why was the button that was sent to kill roth one we know nothing about? wouldn't mike send someone to do the job that would finish with bungling the job? 4) after the scene in gf 1, where fredo trys to undermine mike, could moe reported this to roth and that's when they started to work on fredo? 5) how could have fredo contracted 2 hitters for such a high profile hit like mike's without it setting off some bells somewhere - unless roth suppiled them as 2 unknown buttons???? Observations - when he didn't know how to say banana dauquari, this could have been a ruse on fredo's part, to lure mike into a false sense of security, because the backdrop was still being set.

sorry, for the longwindedness.

Petrie, I was the one who suggested that Fredo may have been responsible for whacking the two gunmen. But, truth be told, I can't prove it or even argue persuasively.

"Who killed the Tahoe gunmen?" is one of the most often-debated subjects here. No one, least of all me, has come up with a satisfactory answer. It's one of those leaps of faith that directors and writers impose on us periodically to keep the plot moving.

sorry turnbull.

I surely thought that you would want Apple to sponser you! [/quote]

"Hello everyone. My name's Apple and I am the facilitator of this Godfatherholic group.

Yes, these black leather thigh high boots, this black leather bodice, and this riding whip is what I'll be wearing and using during our meetings.

Tonight we'll begin by your telling me why you think you are addicted to the Godfather. Remember. There is a right and a wrong reason. So, be careful. I'm pretty good with this whip. And remember also, I've cured bigger addicts than you Dontomasso." [/quote]


My problem is always this: When I get to the belief in a "Higher Power," I always say
"The Higher Power is Vito Corleone," and I fall right off the wagon.

TB, how did Roth know Frankie would be there (at the communion?)

Frankie was Michael's subordinate. It was a command performance.

Plus, Roth supported the Roasatos and he figured Frankie would want to ask for Mike's intervention. In fact, he probbaly hoped that Frankie and Mike would be at odds.

after studying the whole Neri/Rocco situation, i think Rocco was the triggerman on the Tahoe assasins, Michael mentioned "if what I think is happening, has aready happened theyre dead already', which was very vauge and he did not elaborate at all about what he "thinks" happened. and subsequent actions toward him (Fredo)(many go unnoticed), then eventually sending him on a suicide mission to kill Roth,some of the reasons that lead me to think Rocco was involved to some degree.....Any thoughts? please post em'!

heres a good thread thats related to this subject

http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=594134#Post594134

correction (Fredo) i meant (Rocco) im sure most members knew what i meant sorry

great insights

Turnbull,
Your third point is way too much assumption Fredo did NOT say Ola took him to the show, he said he "TOLD HIM" about the show. then said Old Man Roth wasn't into that kind of stuff. I do agree with you guys that Ola and Fredo knew eachother from Vegas, how close, I have to think he wasn't close enough to go on the boat back to the us WITH ROTH. Roth wouldn't be so stupid as to be seen leaving with Fredo after killing Mike. Ideally which is what they were hoping to accomplish on that trip. If Roth and Fredo were working together, they would lay low for a bit incase Tom Hagen or the Mother tried to seek Justice somehow. Remember Tom was VERY loyal to the family. The Corleone's were all he knew as he was homeless and very sick as a child when the family took him in, and they always treated him like a smarter less vicious ally and a son. I really think Tom didn't know where Fredo was just that he was safe. Fredo probably just went home by himself and hid out for awhile

The exact dialog from the script is:

FREDO

JOHNNY OLA told me about this place. He brought me here. I didn't believe him -- but seein' is believin', huh?

Then how did Fredo get to NY in the same 48-hour-or-less time frame that Michael got to Vegas?


Roth's plan was to have his pals in the Cuban government have Michael assassinated in a government car on his way back to the hotel after the Presidential New Year's Eve party. Neither Roth nor Fredo would have been anywhere near that government car when the assassination occurred. The major purpose of Roth's speech at his birthday party, promising to turn over his Havana interests to Michael, was to establish an alibi for Roth--"what, me assassinate Michael? Why, I loved the kid like my own son. I was gonna turn everything over to him...just ask any of those thugs who heard me say it at my birthday party.


Then why did Tom say he was in New York, especially since "home" to Fredo was the Tahoe estate?

Straight from the movie I google the script:

Geary: Hey, Freddie. Where did you find this place? Fredo: Johnny Ola told me about this place. He brought me here. I didn't believe it but seeing is believing, huh! Man: I see it and I still don't believe it! Fredo: 50 bucks Pat. Old man Roth would never come here, but Johnny knows these places like the back of his hand.

Sorry I hadn't seen the movie in a very long time, forgot the line where he said "he brought me here. I just remembered "Johnny Ola told me about this place." and "Old man Roth would never come here"

Im still unclear about how Fredo got home doesn't it just show him running away??

Fredo sort of vacillates between uselessness and borderline cunning in Pt. 2. Fredo may of had enough money in his pocket to get back to Florida and some stashed in New York where he went to ground. I guess we're to infer at least this much from the fact that Fredo did get out on his own and back to New York.

I think though, given Michael's vindictiveness, that if he thought Rocco was in on the Tahoe assassination attempt that he would of have had him killed sooner once he was safely back home. Also, if Michael really suspected Rocco would he of left the Family in the hands of Tom?

We're never shown how Fredo got out of Havana. But, given the chaos caused by Batista's sudden abdication, it seems clear to me that he could only have gotten to NY 48 hours or less via some prearranged private means. Just as Michael had a plane waiting for him, Roth had a boat. And that's why I infer Fredo was on it.

Rocco's role in the Tahoe betrayal and shooting, if there was one, is truly a mystery to many of us here. Rocco was in charge of security for the compound--and the security failed. No one has ever explained how the Tahoe shooters died, leading some to conclude that Rocco killed them to keep them from talking. That would imply that he set up the Tahoe shooting. Of course, there's no proof of any of that.

Then Michael sent him on that one-way mission to kill Roth? Why? Because it was punishment for Rocco's role in the Tahoe shooting? And, Rocco accepted the mission. Why? Because he was trying to get back into Michael's good graces?

I'm not convinced that Rocco had any role in the Tahoe betrayal, but that doesn't mean I totally rule him out. One of those nice mysteries that FFC and Puzo left us with.

But how would Fredo know Roth had a boat unless he was in on the plan the assassinate Michael? Also, Michael told Fredo that Roth was already dead.

About the Tahoe shooters, weren't their throats slit? I'm thinking how did someone get close enough to slit their throats while these guys still had their guns on them?

The only reasonable explanation is that there was a backup team. They may have learned of the assassins' failure on the spot and so they killed them as punishment. Also, having their throats cut might have been a symbolic gesture to point out that they couldn't talk anymore..

The assassination of the assassins makes no sense.

It's unrealistic to think that anyone could take out 2 hired killers by cutting their throats. Even a surprise attack by the Family traitor would only kill one.

Why have a backup team? Obviously, it wasn't to make sure the mission succeeded, since it failed and they did nothing to prevent that. If Roth was so concerned about the first team talking, why hire them at all? Why have a plan that involved smuggling trusted people onto the compound to kill untrusted ones? Why not just have the backup team carry out the mission?

Between the drapes and the dead assassins, that sequence was just not thought through, at least to the level of scrutiny given to it by us crazy fans.

Going back to Fredo's escape from Cuba, I am not so sure Roth would have taken him out. In the first place by then Roth knew that Michael was aware that Roth had organized the hit, and it would have been a small leap for Michael to figure out Fredo had been the traitor in the family. With Roth's assassination plan gone to hell with the Castro uprising, Fredo was of no more use to Roth, and it would make more sense that he be eliminated.

I agree Woltz. It is highly improbable that two hitmen are going to expose themselves to being murdered from which we infer that they must have been taken completely by surprise from behind. Also, why use a knife (and invite all the variables that can accrue to its use) when it's obviously a situation in which one uses a pistol with a silencer.

Also, remember the line: "I don't recognize them. They must be out of New York." Ridiculous.

Perhaps they were killed via silencers and then had their throats slit post mortem as a message. Some killers do have a flair for the dramatic.

The logistics of having an assassination of the original assassins is more daunting to explain. Either the original assassins are to be fully trusted or not trusted at all. This course of action suggests a gray area in between that would not make much sense, as it still involves a degree of trust that they won't simply go tell Michael "Don Corleone, XXX approached us to try to kill you."

dt, you raise an intriguing point. Logic is on your side. But, Roth was in a coma when he got on that boat, and he was in no position to tell his rescuers, "Screw Fredo, he's of no use to me anymore." Also, I'm guessing that if Roth's plan had gone as anticipated--if Michael had been assassinated on his way back to his hotel, and Roth hadn't had his stroke and been attacked by the bodyguard, and Batista hadn't abdicated--Roth would have still sat on his throne in his hotel suite and tut-tutted about poor Michael's unfortunate demise. Fredo would have accompanied his beloved brother's body to Nevada, and tried to assume leadership of the family (which is probably what Roth and Ola promised him in return for his treason).

Fredo was involved deep into it all. I don't believe for one second that he didn't know they was going to try and kill Michael. Fredo was just covering his ass when Ola called. If he wasn't in deep then he would not know about Roth having somebody in the senate. My thing has always been, who killed the two hit men after the failed attempt on Michael's life?

I'm thinking Rocco May have been in on it. First he tells Michael he can't promise to keep them alive and then he dismissing them as guys from NY he don't know. Shifting blame on Pantangelli. Also mike sent Rocco on a suicide mission. In the movie it is not revealed but for sure it was more than one traitor because no way Fredo's kills two hired killers alone.