Hi, me again. Gotta know, did you think that Tony Montana was a bad person? By that I mean did you think he was evil. I read this guy who said that he was "horrible" and to call him 'good' you would have to have "high standards of evil". But I don't think Tony was evil just 'wrong'.

What do you think?

Yes.

In fact, most of the characters from the films we love are romanticized homicidal maniacs, social despots, and cold-blooded killers.

Tony Montana included.

I love Scarface. It is one of my favorite movies and Tony is one of my favorite movie characters.
But if you think that Tony was not evil, and just "wrong," you are gravely mistaken.

Tony Montana was evil incarnate. This is a man that would stop at nothing to get whatever he desired. And if that meant killing, committing murder and double crossing people, he'd do it. He had absolutely no regard for human life whatsoever. The only heart that Tony had was for his sister and children.

I'm sure, that even the most evil of men who've existed in this world, men who've carried out the most outrageous crimes imaginable, had their soft moments when they may have shown some love and compassion. But that does not change the fact that they were evil.


Don Cardi

Well written, Cardi, and I suppose you have a point about evil men can still have soft moments. But I just can't seem to grasp the fact that that Tony was a heartless evil dude. OK, he did evil things. But I believe that deep (deep deep) inside, he was just a victem of corruption in this world. His life led to the choices he made. Sure he was an ass, I won't deny such; but I think that there was a side of him that ment well, but his life didn't turn out the way he wanted. (lets keep in mind its only a movie folks)

I don't think he was evil, insanse yes, coked out sure, but evil no. Tony did what he had to do and yes he was insane imagine how you would be if you were in jail then you were put on a boat thinking you were going towards freedom and you get sent to a camp which isn't any better than the prison he just got out of. Then he gets money, coke, power, women. What did you expect him to do

Right-- Tony was not evil. You can't compare him to the most evil men in the world because he is not one of them If a person is cold hearted and evil like some of you claim that Tony was, then they would not care about killng ANYONE; including children and women. They would get pleasure from it, and NEED to do it and Tony may not have cared about killing men who were bad (Frank tried to kill him first; Mel was a crooked cop so that's why he was killed) but he did have feelings and regard for life, otherwise he would have blew up those kids with no problem. Like I said, his life led to his choices; his circumstance made him that way. His life made him hard, and that was the only thing he knew how to be. He comes from communist Cuba, were he and his people were treated like sh@?t, and then when he comes to America he is still sh@?t on here given a crappy job, and the choice to scrape your way up, or scrape your way up. So, he got pushed into selling drugs, the way he saw it there was no other way. But I say again, he did have love in his heart, he was just damaged. After he kills Manny he later falls into his chair and says, " how the fu@k I do that Manny?!" Now I ask, would anyone who had no regard for life be that way? I don't think so.

Tony Montana was a romanticized criminal. He was evil and he was a victim of his society. Hitler was the same, although on a larger scale of evil.

Hitler loved his dog Blondie and his family, but he was still evil.

To compare Tony Montana to Hitler is ridiculous.
First of all, Hitler killed thousands and thousands of women and children, and just innocent people. Anytime Tony killed a man it was a filthy communist who had people torcherd, or a crooked cop, or just anouther drug dealer.
Second, it is easy for some lowlife to love a DOG, but entirely different to love a human being. Tony loved his sister, and tried to protect her from the drug world.And yes he loved Manny. He was filled with anger, because his mother turned him away and acted like she hated him. So after that he didn't care anymore. He didn't think he needed anybody(which he did), beacause his own mother called him an animal, and said she didn't have a son. So that helped Tony in his downfall. Put yourself in his place. It is easy to look at the surface, and just focus on Tony's actions and then call him evil. But youv'e never been in his shoes, you have never had to fight for your freedom, and your right to have what you wanted like he did. In a song it says "what would you do if your baby was at home and crying because he was hungery?" The awnser is, if you had no money and no other way to get it other than to sleep with a man; you would do it. You would do anything for your child,and if it came to that, then so be it. And if you came from Cuba, and lived the way Tony did (read the book for detail on his life in Cuba)then you would do what you had to to have a better life. Even if it just happend to involve selling coke, and being a gangster.And if you were forced, you would even kill a man to feed your child. Your right, Tony was a victim of society-- as we all are, to one extent or another. A victim of life. Tony lived in poverty, and that leads to crime. For all kinds of people, not just the ones we percieve to be evil. Tony fought to get what he wanted and that is a human trait in all of us. His way to do it "just happend" to be crime. He was NOT evil.

lol Tony compared to Hitler is like comparing Cupcakes to someone sticking their tongue in a bowl of needles its ridiculous. Tony was a bad ass I admit that but he wasn't evil.

I don't know if DV really meant it as a comparison the way you folks are taking it. He meant that evil people can show compassion, but they are still wholly evil.

Tony Montana and Hitler were both evil bastards.

Hitler was a sick ****, He killed thousands of innocent people, men and woemen and children it didn't matter to him...
but Tony didn't do that...
I agree that Tony was a victim of his society...

Don Zadjali

Nah, he only killed a bunch of people, dealt drugs that probably ended up in the hands of children, or made junkies out of parents, etc. He was an angel.



Yeah, because, after all, every Cuban that came from Mariel Harbor turned to drug dealing in order to survive, and it was society that made them do it.

"We may be morons, but we are ORGANIZED! Local 6 7/8ths."

I believe Tony is a bad person, but he does have his limits. This makes the viewer not completely hate him. For example, he shoots Alberto and inevitably signs his own demise to save some children and a mom. He drew his limit at women and children, which means he at least has some limits. He's still an evil Gangster who kills innocent men, but at least he isn't completely heartless! He realized his mistakes in life in the final scene however, when he realized he lost his family and his best friend - thanks to his evil ways.

Nah, he only killed a bunch of people, dealt drugs that probably ended up in the hands of children, or made junkies out of parents, etc. He was an angel.



Yeah, because, after all, every Cuban that came from Mariel Harbor turned to drug dealing in order to survive, and it was society that made them do it. [/quote]

I'm not saying that every Cuban from Mariel was a drug dealer.And yes, Tony is responsable for his actions no matter what. But what I mean,is that he forced into that life, beacause that's all he knew, and he was very poor,and couldn't see any other way. We could not understand, beacause we did not live like he did.

I don't buy that. His sister and his mother were also poor Cuban immigrants, yet they wholly rejected lives of crime and took honest jobs.

Tony made choices - choices that inherently make him an evil person.

Tony was a victim of his upbringing and of society. But so were his mother and his sister. It comes down to which road a person chooses to take and what they decide to do with their lives when they are victims of society. Some people learn from their being victims of a bad upbringing or being a victim of society. They choose to not make the same mistakes that they saw others make in their upbringing and so they decide to strive for a legitimate and educated life. This is Mama and Gina.
Then there are those, like Tony, who become bitter from what they've experienced, bitter from being a victim of their society, and they choose, like Tony chose, a life of crime. They get this chip on their shoulder which makes them think that the world owes them everything and that they owe nothing to the world. They decide that working hard gets you no where so they just take what they want from hard working people and society itself. This was Tony. His making that choice to take what he wanted, kill people doing it, and not caring about the consequences or the lives that he was ruining by making money from the drug trade makes him evil. When a person does not care that his making money from the drug trade is ruining the lives of families and the futures of children, that person is both selfish and evil. Everyone has choices. It's what we do with those choices that defines what and who we are.

This about sums up my opinion on movies. While not all movies do this, the majority of movies seem to get you to side with someone even if they are evil. And my answer to the original question... yes. of course.

You all make good points, and your opinions are good. But I just can't grasp that Tony was evil. It has been said that we all have a dark side. Yes Tony made horrible selfish choices but any person can be selfish. That does not make him evil. I'm not sure I can explain my point any clearer or more understandable but what I mean is it takes all kinds of humans to do wrong not just those who are evil. There is so much more to life than black-and-white.

Perhaps a better question, to outline my point, is to list the characteristics that make Tony a "good" person.

Certainly few and far between.

He won't kill a mother and her kids, and he always tells the truth, even when he lies. So say goodnight to the badguy.

Oh, and he likes "pelicans."

After watching the movie for more than five minutes, you could say, "Man, Tony is a dick!". Tony is not a nice guy, how many "nice" guys work in the cocaine industry and shoot and kill their friend for being w/ his sister? I thought the most revealing scene for Tony's persona was when he was out having dinner with Manny and Elvira, and he publically humiliates both of them.

Myself?

Don Vercetti was not comparing Tony to Hitler on a mirrored or side by side basis. He clearly stated that Hitler was evil on a larger scale. Hitler was a very evil person who would stop at nothing to achieve his personal goals. And in doing so he destroyed thousands upon thousands of lives. Tony Montana was also an evil person who would stop at nothing to to achieve his personal goals. And in doing so he destroyed many innocent lives. Evil acts on the same level? Not by any means. But the bottom line is that intentionally taking a life for personal gain is wrong, and it is evil, no matter on what level it is carried out on.

It is true that what he did still affected innocent lives, and I've thought about that a hundred times...and I think that he was fool,because I don't think he ever thought about that,but that doesn't make him heartless. Naive maybe...

Who's being naive?


Don Cardi

He can speak english.
And nyc goodfella has effectively done my job,In the above post.
Come on,He makes for good cinema lines,But good person?-He makes pablo escabar look like tv's barney.

Well I do firmly
beleive that he can kick Pablo's ass

If you take the movie literally then yes he is. But if you read between the lines you can relate it to your own life. I don't think so from that perspective. He was coming up in the world, struggling, trying to achieve a goal. Tony also had to deal with envious people. People backstabbing him. From that perspective I can relate so I like the film and the character. It is my favorite film.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9781413704761&itm=1

Struggling and coming up in the world? Having to deal with envious and backstabbing people?

You make it sound like he was some hard working legitimate business man who had to work hard everyday to acheive his goal.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the movie and I love the Tony Montana character. It's a movie, and he's just a character. But he is what he is : A murdering, thieving, scumbag, drug dealing lowlife who'd cut you up for a dollar in a heartbeat.



Don Cardi

On the surface,you could say that. But I agree with PS whole heartedly.
Looking between the lines is necessary when you look at a guy like Tony Montana.
When you look at it that way,you can see different things about him. He was only a man,who thought foolishly that he could have the world and when he got it, he later fell apart,and couldn't handle it.I look at him as being someone who did not want to be evil,or plan to be evil,knew that his life was no good for his sister,and struggled within himself to justify his own actions.
But yes,he was what he was,but I cannot see him as a monster.
To me,it all comes down to this:He was a victim of corruption in this world.

I don't know about that. To a point, while living in Cuba, yes. However when he arrived in America, he had choices. He could have easily chose to ride it out in Freedomtown, get released, and start a new life in America. Instead he was given an opportunity to take a shortcut out of Freedomtown, and he chose to commit murder to enable himself to take that shortcut out of Freedomtown. A guy like Tony Montana is the kind of person that no matter what opportunity is presented to him, will turn that opportunity into an evil act because of his own selfishness and greed. Tony Montana was not the kind of person who was going to change from the life that he had in Cuba. He was not going to work a 9 - 5 job and walk the straight an narrow because he had an evil selfishness within himself that would step on and destroy anything and anyone that got in his way.


Don Cardi

I think he had both good and bad qualities.

Absolutly not. He was doin wuh had to be done. I don't blame him for doin anything. The only bad thing he did was at the end...biggest regret...killin Manny. Other than that...great role model.

He just made too many mistakes. He didn't know that everything would blow up in his face. All he wanted was the American Dream.
But he was a fool, because he thought he could get it by living dirty.

Tony wasn't a fool... He was a... a... I dunno but he's not a fool

If you think about it, the idea he had about achieving happiness through crime was foolish. No he wasn't stupid, and in many other ways he was very smart, but that one mistake....was very foolish.

He was not book smart, or educated by any means. But he was no fool either. He had survival instincts, street smarts, and that's what made him become so successful in such a short time. Keep in mind that Tony Montana escaped from a life where he had nothing and therefore was not afraid of dying. So when he came to America, he came with a lust for the good life, and he decided that he would go for the gusto, no matter what the cost because he really had nothing to lose.

Unfortunately for him, his fast rise to power afforded him to live life in the fast lane, and he allowed his addiction to cloud his judgement which eventually cost him his life and everything that he had achieved.





Don Cardi

You're, umm, kidding right?

Should I be? To tell you the truth, no, I'm not kidding.

Would you care to explain to us why you feel that Tony Montana was a good role model?



Don Cardi

Listen. I guess we just have different outlooks on life. That's ok. I just don't wanna start a fight, ok?

I wouldn't exactly call him a role modle. Tony did, first and foremost live a life of crime and violence and ended up dying as a result. I don't really think that is something you wanna strive to be. But I know what your idea is. He did have honorable standards that other gangsters did not. But that did not save him.

I think you understand wuh I'm tryin to say.

No one's looking to fight here. Just was interested to know what makes you feel that he was a role model.


Don Cardi

For instance?



Don Cardi

Honorable ?
A cocaine smuggling murderer that wanted to **** his own sister and killed his best friend ?
I'll tell ya' what, let's just agree to disagree.
Miami in 1980, was comparable to the wild west. The older Jewish population was dying off, just as Castro was liberating some 20,000 of his most psychotic criminals to resume their criminal ways, right here in the land of the free. This would be comparable to emptying a supermax prison, such as Marion, to prey on a retirement community in Arizona !
Tony Montana had the guile, street smarts and survival instincts to survive and prosper among such lunatics. Nobody is denying that, but as far as being honorable ?
Well, as I said, let's just agree to disagree.

*Sigh*.... As I said before Tony never killed women and children. That was his rule, and that in itself was honorable. Sosa didn't care about those children. Alberto didn't. But Tony did. Tony was willing to botch an entire plan because the kids were in the car. No one else was. That one choice, is what set Sosa off to kill him. Yeah, yeah, his actions in killing men caused children to lose thier fathers no doubt! And made widows of course!

But the MAIN POINT is, that Tony would have NEVER murdered a child or a woman, and THAT is what set him apart from other gangsters.He CARED about those who were innocent. He CARED that the kids could die in the car. And he refused to let that happen. Now about that whole incest thing, I don't even wanna get into that anymore...

You don't have to insult me. I always go out of my way to be polite to people, even when I disagree with them.
When did I ever stick up for Omar or Sosa ? They were scum, too.
Okay, Tony didn't kill children, but as far as caring about them, if that were true, he wouldn't have been in the drug business. Period.

Period? Wuh the hell? Either, you're trying to make yourself look stupid or you're trying to end this discussion, which didn't work...so I guess it falls back into the first category...

Meh, no one is insulting you pizzaboy, wer'e just talking about movies. I don't think we need to get personal! And I never said you were sticking up for Sosa or Omar, I was just illustrating a point, and no, I don't like to sugarcoat my views. But like I said no need to personalize it. If I wanted to insult you I'd probably be kicked off this board already, and I don't have any reason to do that anyway.But I am tierd of hearing about Tony covating(sp?) his sister, cause I don't believe it to be so.

No more drama, this isn't politics

No problem BB.
I can agree to agree to disagree about just about anything, including politics, but I'm not going there.
I'm just cranky cuz I shoulda' won at least one quarter in one of my Super Bowl pools.
One of the greatest kickers of all time went and missed an easy field goal, but it rained like crazy down there, so it wasn't his fault.

I never got much into the Superbowl, except for the food part

I'm cramky too most every day. You know, that woman thing!
'Cept I get mad at the soaps. Todd and Blair, I hate those two They are always fighting about something.

I completely agree with you. I never had, nor will I ever have intentions of believing that Tony wanted to fuck his sister...that's bullshit...

It is, and I don't understand how folks can watch the film and see all of these "subtexts" so loudly and clearly, and I look at it, and I see nothing. It's in the eye of the beholder I guess.

I too agree.. Tony´s love for Gina was pure Brother/sister love..Nothing else..

Do you think he loved Elvi? I think he was fond of her, becuase when she left, he kept asking if she had called or not. I don't think he wanted it to end that way. But I do not agree with the idea that he did not care for her, or that he abuse her physically.

no Tony didnt wanna fuck his sister..i never understood why people said that..even in the scene where she first walks in his office saying"you cant stand for another man to be touching me ..so you want me tony huh?)
Tony replies with a confused look on his face"what you talking?!!

she was the only pure thing in his life remeber and its his bloody little sister of course he loved her..

as for elvira..well i think tony loved her to the extent he could love a woman..i dont think he knew how to express himself properly either..just my thoughts

tony had his own defenition of love and he loved elivra to the extent of that.

Yes, I think so too. And I don't think that he ever would have intentionally hurt her..he never wanted to hurt anyone in his family.

He was a great guy untill the power and money got to him. Just like Adolf...

He was a bad person who just went worse until somebody put a bullet through him.

touche

That's awfully retarded.

Tony was a [BadWord].

There is a scene from the movie Wyatt Earp with Kevin Costner and Dennis Quaide (Doc Holiday). Both are in the saloon after Wyatt's wife (?) tries to commit suicide and Wyatt is feeling guilty over it. Doc tries to molify him to which Wyatt responds "Is that supposed to get me off the hook?" Doc says "There is no hook. There's only what we do."

I completely agree. You can mess around with concepts of good and evil all you want. In the end, it's only our actions that count and by which we are judged. I may be the most intrinsically evil person on this earth, but I've never murdered anyone, I've never provided drugs to anyone, I've never had incestuous thoughts about my sister, and I've never misled others into destructive and murderous actions. So, what difference does it make whether I or Tony Montana are evil or not?

If a man is a murderer (whether he has murdered one person or more than one person) and if he supplies illegal drugs to other people, then he is evil; it is non-debatable.

Hey!!!
I don't consider myself evil,so what are you talkin.... oh..my bad your talking about Tony.

I do agree with that!

ME TOO!

He's a horrible person who rises to power.

That's why we watch it.

Interesting, I think that people are fixated on the "evil" side of humanity. I still can't fathom Tony being that(i'm a softy)
But I see what yer sayin!

After reading through this thread again I think it's silly to say he was a victim of whatever so that's why he did bad things. The reason I mention it is because of the recent events with Michael Vick and the dog fighting charges. He took pleasure in watching animals die in brutal ways, which to me is obviously a horrible thing! But there are some people who say he is just acting the way the people around him act growing up. I don't think that's an excuse because he knew it was wrong, that's why he was secretive about it.

Same with Tony. If he was a good person then why did he have to do things secretively? Why did he need his security cameras? Sure he stopped himself from killing women and children, but even in a place like prison men get beat and sometimes killed because they killed women and children. The men who kill those guys are also bad people, that's why they are in prison, but because they stop short of women and children doesn't make them good.

I think it's interesting that this is even a topic of discussion, but I honestly don't see why it is.

I just want to say that not all prison inmates are bad simply because they are in prison. They may have made stupid errors which landed them in prison, or they may have been wrongfully accused or whatever-- there are a huge number of reasons people go to prison. Perhaps I'm not pleading Tony's case right. I should say that Tony may have a bad side, but he also has a good side, where some people out there have no feeling, or compassion for anything whatsoever. Sure Vic had a choice. He was a rich man with a great career, and he was stupid for screwing it all up. But he also grew up in this countrey, where he had privlages and wasn't under oppression and total poverty.
Perhaps he was poor growing up, but he probably didn't have to wear cardboard on his feet.

A person's upbringing and background do indeed influence thier choices or behavior. Tony is not a saint or a perfect person, but he is still not "evil" I doubt he would enjoy watching animals die. I get what yer saying, but that's just the way I feel.

Horrible person.

His end couldn't have been more appropriate or justified.

So if somebody gave you some sort of a reward for killing another person, and you did it, that wouldn't make you a bad person? I think that alone is reason enough why Tony is a bad person. If not then I think you can justify anything and there is no such thing as a bad person in this world.

I agree, Blibble.

Let me re-phrase- what comes around goes around. That's all I meant.

I agree with you as well PB, my comment was directed to Brwne Byte. I should have used the quote feature.

And I'm sure that such horrible people like Hitler had there "good" moments. That doesn't excuse them from being what they really are.



So it's was ok that he enjoyed killing humans and watching humans die as long as he didn't enjoy watching or killing animals?

has anyone seemed to notice that some place more value on a animals life than a humans? people never cease to amaze me

I didn't mean it that way, I was just trying to, I guess, make a point. But I can see I'm being pummled to death here

Chopper, read this old thread we discussed here a while back about this topic... Pets vs. Humans. It's pretty interesting!

thanks for that bibble it was interesting to see peoples different views on the matter

Hurm.

Oh yes1 Tony is one badass dude!

Well, he is indeed a "bad ass" lol

Are you saying he's not a "dude" Brwne Byte? This could open up a whole new topic of discussion about Tony Montana because there was a moment or two where I thought he was wearing make-up... not to mention his love for Elvira's hat.

You all know this.

Huh?

What's your confusion Brwne Byte? Why the "Huh?"?

Notions of good and evil are a falsity; they're a bi-product of established laws. And laws in themselves are masks.

Moral: Long live anarchy!

So... are you saying Tony is bi?

In all seriousness, he probably is.

You mean, bi!?? Oh, lord, let's not go there again! lol

Is that what you mean tho???

Seriously tho, I totally get your comment Capo. Very interesting take. When I started this thread a long while back, I think I oversimplified the "bad" in the title. Maybe I should have put "heartless" or something, more specific. I've matured sice then, and I realize it's more complicated than that. I still believe tho, that Tony is not a monster, not like Omar or Sosa. Meh.

Tony was more of an animal then Omar!!!IMO.C'mon think about the comparisons.

You laugh Chopper, but there are some good arguments as to why he really is Bi in this thread: Tony being Bi(you know)

Unfortunately that thread was closed. Would Tony being Bi make him a bad person? I'm sure that in the eyes of many he would be, even if he didn't do anything illegal.

I'm sure Tony was aware of the laws in the society he lived, what he did was wrong, even he knew that. He was milking the state clean and pumping drugs (a demerit good) in the society. Soza nad others were doing the same but that doesnt mean Tony was not evil.

Sorry, I never returned to this thread.


Yeah.

I think testosterone-fuelled, drug-fuelled, sexually jealous characters like Tony in Scarface invite us into Freudian readings - incest is easy, of course, but it can probably be stretched further into homosexuality.

Irrational violence such as that in Scarface can be read as an extension of over-played ('camp') gender performance (in this case, 'masculinity'), which is closely linked to sexual repression and frustration. Look at Cagney's need to please his mother in White Heat ("Made it, Ma! Top o' the world!") or his heavily implied impotence in The Public Enemy (closely linked, in that film, to his loving relationship to his mother again).

Sexuality is pretty fluid, anyway; it's not a natural thing. I identify myself as a "homosexual male", but I couldn't for a second deny that's a product of the culture I've been brought up in, with whom I've grown up and in whom I've identified various states of desire and loss.

On a side note, I had no idea about the previous thread on Tony being bisexual until now. Blibble's pun on my "bi-product" went over my head, and I just now see the thread that was closed.

I could give a more detailed character deconstruction but would need to watch the film again, and that doesn't seem very appealing to me.

That is very interesting. I thought about those things too, becaUse at one point I read about the original Scarface, and that one of the possibilities was that Tony(Paul Muni) shot his friend when he saw him with his sister because he was attracted to the friend, and not his sister. Some people will get riled up if they hear something about Tony having homosexual feelings, because he's "Tony Montana". So yeah, it's natural to think that because a man is so "macho" and tough big bad gangster, they couldn't have those feelings! "Macho men are not homosexual" that's like, an unsaid rule or something.

And maybe that is why guys like Tony, like you say, do their gender performance, because they think they can deny or repress what they feel by being "macho". So I definatly see where you're coming from.

It wasn't written into the script,so he wasn't Bi.I think you guys are clutching at straws if you honestly think Tony like to screw ass.

Honestly, we are just speculating. We are not saying that that is for sure what he is.

Yeah, but you can read into things all you want as long as you feel the text invites you. At some point, all authors must be detached from what they create; all art must be given the space to breathe and exist outside its intended origins - whatever "authorial intention" means.

(It's interesting the amount of backlash JK Rowling got from fans for outing Dumbledore as a homosexual. In essence, though, she's not right (nor is she wrong), she's just analysing her own work. And I would argue that artists are simply their own first audience.)

This isn't "over-analysing" or "reading too much into things". I don't even claim that Tony is bi-sexual - I'd have to watch the film again to give a more detailed study, and I don't really want to because I don't like it.

Whatever, though, of potential arguments for Tony's sexuality (I won't beat a dead horse), I still think it's extremely interesting that, armed with a massive gun (substituting what?) in the climax , the first words that come out of his mouth are:

"Say hello to my little friend."

I agree with Whisper i definetly dont think Tony is a booty bandit