I think that Roth did have an organization. The character was based on Lansky, who also had an organization. It wasn't as flashy as some of the other families but it was , at least during the fifties and sixties, as powerful as some of the better known families.

TB, I doubt that Fredo or anyone gunning down the gunmen amidst the cacophany of machine gun fire doesn't work. The gunmen were found a distance away from Mike's house in what appears to be a drainage ditch. The geometry doesn't work.

Also, Fredo in a crisis? Let alone with the job to murder two people?

FFC and Puzo made Fredo almost a cartoonishly dumb character. But a silver lining in our perception of his terminal simplicity is that we were all the more shocked when he turned out to be the traitor. No matter what his role, he was pivotal to an assassination plot that very nearly worked.

Lansky never had an organization of any substance because he didn't need one. He had partnerships with the most powerful men in organized crime. As long as they made money together, their organizations supplied Lansky with capital, protection--and muscle when needed. He and Charlie Luciano were like brothers throught their lifetimes. Though Lansky didn't sit on the Commission, he sat with the Commission, advising and making allies of the other Dons. For example, when he wanted to move slot machines into New Orleans, he brought Frank Costello on as a partner. Costello's presence helped smooth things over with Carlos Marcello, the Mafia boss of Louisiana. And while Batista put Lansky in charge of Havana gaming, he made sure to bring Santos Trafficante, the Mafia boss of Florida, as his partner. Trafficante, in turn, protected Lansky's gaming empire in Broward County, FL.

Lansky had a Mafia partner who was at his side for many years--Vincent (Jimmy Blue Eyes) Alo, the model for Johnny Ola (the name is an anagram). But Alo wasn't a toady like Ola--he was a real partner. Alo's closeness to Lansky was a physical reminder to independents and wayward Mob types that Lansky was protected by the Mafia.

According to Lansky's biographer, Robert Lacey, Lansky's modus operandi contributed to his longevity (81) and peaceful death: he never held the physical assets or army of gunsels that would have engendered fear and jealousy among Mob bosses--and that would have made them want to whack him.

Lilo, let's take another look at this long-standing controversy, this time from the viewpoint of Fredo's motivation:

He told Michael in the boathouse: "He [Johnny Ola] said there'd be something in it for me." Given Fredo's burning resentment of Michael, it's credible that his motivation was revenge. So, he probably didn't press Ola too hard on the benefits to him. Ola may have told him that Michael wouldn't be harmed, that all they wanted to do was kidnap him and talk sense to him. Fredo would have closed his ears to the speciousness of that tale because all he wanted was for Michael to be taken down a few pegs. And, when he said on the phone to Ola, "You guys lied to me," he may have meant that they'd promised there'd be no shooting.

But: suppose what was in it for Fredo was to become the new Don?
(snipped)

Even Fredo had to know that he'd never get the Donship while Michael lived. So, he had to be an active, knowing, willing participant in the plot to kill Michael at Tahoe. And, "you guys lied to me" may have meant that they'd assured him that Michael would be dead.

If you believe, as I do, that Fredo was a key player in the Tahoe shooting, you also must believe he had to be a part of the Havana treachery:

First reason: blackmail. (snipped)

Second reason: greed. ( snipped)

And (breathes deeply), let me go a step farther:

Fredo's active, knowing role in the Tahoe assassination attempt may have been to admit the two gunmen to the estate, lead them to Michael's bedroom window, and help them escape. But, escape would have been problematic, given the size of the estate and the high level of security. The gunmen easily could have been captured, and forced to tell what they knew--implicating Fredo and Roth.

So, I'm guessing, to protect himself and Roth, Fredo killed the Tahoe shooters--dead men tell no tales. Some people on this board, seeing a red mark on the throat of one of the gunmen, conclude that he was stabbed or garrotted. Not even Luca Brasi could have taken on two trained, armed killers with a garrotte or a knife, much less Fredo. But I'm guessing that the red mark was a mistake--and that Fredo shot the two gunmen, the sound of his gunshots masked in the general cacaphony of machine gun rounds.

Although Fredo was certainly not overly bright I also can't quite see him thinking that in the event of Michael's demise that Tom, Rocco, Neri, Pentangeli or others would accept or promote Fredo as Boss.

But....he definitely had a group of his own. Initially this would have been the Bug and Meyer mob of the twenties, part of which later morphed into what would be called Murder Inc. But Lanksy also had his own personal gambling casinos, horsetracks and nightclubs in Florida, Kentucky and upstate NY. Then of course all the other business and interests which you mention. He was in partnerships, to be sure. But he was more than just an investor.

There were differences between Jewish OC and the Italian versions, the most relevant here being that post WW2 we just don't see new young Jewish influx into OC. So Lansky's group gradually shrunk and/or went legit.

As Jack Dragna said "Meyer's got a Jewish family built along the same lines as our thing. But his family's all over the country. He's got guys like Lou Rhody and Dalitz, Doc Stacher, Gus Greenbaum,, sharp ******** guys, good businessmen, and they know better than to try to ******** with us."

Murder Inc. was formed by Lepke Buchalter. Lansky may have used their hitters from time to time, but their biggest user (and occasional supplier of shooters) was Albert Anastasia. Go here:

http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=367602&page=1&fpart=3

True. Lansky, Siegel, Dalitz, Zwillman, Landsburgh, etc., went on to build Vegas. Money washed away their sins, except Lansky's. The government continued to have an, uh, "erection" for him.

Depends how you define "family." They were his partner in various enterprises (like Vegas hotels, Bahamas casinos, racetracks, etc.). But they weren't part of a permanent mob that took orders from Lansky, though they may have deferred to him as a senior partner in their mutual enterprises.

The rosetta stone for this discussion IMHO is the meeting between Michael and Fredo in Havana. Mike pointedly asks him if he knew Johnny Ola, and Fredo lied to him. Then when they go out for the afternoon, and Fredo is loosened up by a couple of banana daquaris he seems to be remorseful and is having second thoughts about what he did. After Michael confides in him about the upcoming attempt on his life Fredo says some telling things. He says "Why couldn't wehave spenttime like this before?" Before what? Obviously his treachery. Then even more telling "I was mad at you!" Again for what? and finally, the very freudian statement that sometimes he thinks his Mama's jest that he was left on the doorstep by gypsies might be true.
In other words he is not a true brother to Michael.

This scene has guilt written all through it.

...Bravo DON T! Both you and TB have placed a totaly new light on the whole Roth/Fredo scenerio.

And if you both do not mind, I'd like to once again add that I believe that the Fredo/Ola relationship goes all the way back to when Fredo was with Moe Green while in Las Vegas.

Perhaps it was something like "Vouch for these new guys out of NY to join your team" or "Let these guys from Ola's crew stay behind when he leaves, they might need to talk to Michael first thing next morning" or "Hey we're arriving by boat launch, can you draw up a general map of your brother's compound" or maybe something like "Can you introduce us to Rocco"...

Well, I suppose if I watched the same film 5 times a day 7 days a week 52 weeks a year...I'd be placing totally new lights on the same old scenarios every so often as well.

FFC could probably make not only a GFIV but a full blown HBO series based on the sometimes incredibly insane stuff that has emerged here over the past several years.

And if you do not mind, I'd like to once again add that I believe that:
a) Michael was RIGHT to have Fredo killed, and
b) Fredo didn't know

Apple

Well, I suppose if I watched the same film 5 times a day 7 days a week 52 weeks a year...I'd be placing totally new lights on the same old scenarios every so often as well.

FFC could probably make not only a GFIV but a full blown HBO series based on the sometimes incredibly insane stuff that has emerged here over the past several years.

Apple

...how else can an old guy fill his time? Cashing Social Security checks and clipping coupons just doesn't complete my day...

Between watching "the same film 5 times a day 7 days a week 52 weeks out of the year," how do you find time to cook, eat, sleep, read, post to the boards and watch Cavalleria Rusticana, Laura, True Confessions, Goodfellas and Casino?

Geez, I watch it a lot more often than that!

The first step in the 12 step program:

HELLO, MY NAME IS DONTOMASSO, AND I AM A GODFATHERHOLIC!

Well, it's on AMC right now if anyone wants to watch.

If? If?

The first step in the 12 step program:

HELLO, MY NAME IS DONTOMASSO, AND I AM A GODFATHERHOLIC!

DC will you be my sponsor?

I surely thought that you would want Apple to sponser you!