This is from another thread (Should Mike have killed Kay) but I figured it best to move it to its own.

Now, for my statement - you have to go to the time where Mike was at the end of GFII, you have to be bitter, you have to have lost everything and everyone close to you via murder, divorce or natural death. You have to look at the man you entrusted your family to while you were away making a huge deal for the family. You have to remember that Mike told Tom:

"I give you complete power, TOM -- over FREDO and his men, ROCCO, NERI, everyone. I am trusting you with the lives of my wife and my children -- the future of this family."

During that the time Mike was away, Kay had an abortion and emotionally divorced herself from Mike, Pentangeli turned, and Roth got the upper hand - for the moment. That is why Mike is so bitter towards Tom in the end. At that point, if I had been Michael, I'd have whacked Tom to vent my anger over my loss of family, rather than Kay or anyone else.

P.S.: Personally, I like Tom and I think it would have been a mistake to do; however, given Mike's state of mind at the time, Tom was the obvious scapegoat for Mike's inadequacies as Don.

How was Tom Hagen supposet to deal with Kay Michael's wife? Tell me what he was suppose to do. Tom is like a brother to Michael and Tom would never betray Michael. Tom also isn't a war consligere like that was established in Godfather Part I and Michael should have know that, but I agree that Michael used Hagen as the scapegoat when the situation got tough with Kay having the abortion.

Justified or not, Michael felt Tom was loyal, but not a good consigliere. From Michael's viewpoint, Tom failed to see that Carlo would betray Sonny, leading to Sonny's death and Michael's forced ascendency as Don. Kay had an abortion on Tom's watch: even though he forbade her to leave the compound, she must have contrived to have a doctor whom Tom approved perform it. Then Tom failed to find out that Frankie Pentangeli survived the attempted murder. "Our people with the New York detectives said he was half-dead, scared, talking out loud..." Duh, Tom! How come your people with the New York detectives didn't tell you that before you allowed your one and only client to perjure himself five times before a Senate subcommittee?

sorry totally disagree. Tom couldnt do anything to prevent what happened during Mike's short absence.

It makes you wonder if Duvall actually was in GF3 if FFC would have had him whacked.

Con respetto, mei amici, Tom would have been dead if FFC would have had him whacked. No Obi-Wan type of influence here. In fact, many friends of mine say that Mike had Tom killed between II and III which is why he is contrite to Tom Jr.

Mike's anger was founded in and rooted at Tom at the end of GFII, albeit improperly. Tom's lucky to have made it out alive then. Questionably, he may have paid the ultimate price before 1979 at Mike's hands.

Remember, Tom was Sonny's brother. Sonny found him off the streets and asked Vito to protect him. Mike followed Sonny's lead. The bond between Mike and Tom was nothing compared to Sonny and Tom. Sonny would have never crossed Tom in the same way Mike did. Capide?

Con respetto, mei amici, Tom would have been dead if FFC would have had him whacked. No Obi-Wan type of influence here. In fact, many friends of mine say that Mike had Tom killed between II and III which is why he is contrite to Tom Jr.

Mike's anger was founded in and rooted at Tom at the end of GFII, albeit improperly. Tom's lucky to have made it out alive then. Questionably, he may have paid the ultimate price before 1979 at Mike's hands.

Remember, Tom was Sonny's brother. Sonny found him off the streets and asked Vito to protect him. Mike followed Sonny's lead. The bond between Mike and Tom was nothing compared to Sonny and Tom. Sonny would have never crossed Tom in the same way Mike did. Capide?

in my opinion killing Tom would be an absurd, since he never betrayed the family and no one of the troubles that came when he was as Don were caused by him. even if you consider he was a bad Don and/or a bad consigliere, I think this wouldn't be a reason to kill him. maybe he should just be sidelined.
if "not being that smart" was a reason to be killed, Fredo would have been killed a long time before the time he actually was.

This is so absurd it almost doesn't warrant a response, but I believe you brought up the topic to make waves, so here I am to help out.

First of all, all the things you mention (Kay's abortion/Frankie's betrayal/Roth's 'upper hand') were all in the works even before Mike left Tom in charge. It was Fredo who gave Roth the temporary 'upper hand'. Kay had just about had it when her bedroom got shot into. It was all a matter of time.

What you seem to forget is that while Mike was away Tom arranged to get Sen. Geary in the Corleone's pocket and also confined Kay & the children to the compound...thereby potentially protecting their lives.

Tom was always loyal (even when offered a legitimate position) and never gave Tom reason to doubt his loyalty. There was no reason whatsoever to even want him dead.

Second...Michael did not have people killed simply as a way to 'vent' his anger. He had people killed because they had intentionally caused harm to and betrayed his Family.

That said, I still think you started this topic as a joke and aren't really serious.

We're heading home early because of the snow here in NJ. Have a good weekend, everyone!!

AppleOnYa

i believe appleonya deserves a round of applause. very well said. Tom was always a great guy and loyal.

remember he was offered a job elsewhere is part II, a legit job and he turned it down to stay with the family.

i believe every family could have done with a Tom Hagen. "my krout-mc-friend" lol...that bit was scripted it wasnt in the book was it?

You are a smaaaaat lady.