The more I think about it, the more I think the Bocchiccios are supposed to be the fifth of the Five Families, and that Puzo just had trouble clarifying how they could be a part of the war while also acting as negotiator.

Did some more reading, and I have come to the conclusion that it is impossible for the Corleone Family to be one of the Five. Why? It says that as host, Don Corleone was already there before anyone else began to arrive...and the Five Families arrived last. So it's impossible for the Corleone Family to be one of the Five.

And I also don't believe that the Bocchiccios could be counted among the Five, simply because of the way they act as insurance. When Michael went to speak with Sollozo, a hostage from the Bocchiccios was sent to the Corleones. If Michael was killed, the hostage would be killed too, and the Bocchiccios would blame Sollozo. The same happens here. When we are introduced to the Bocchiccios and this system of negotiations, we learn that each Family represented has been issued a hostage for insurance. So why would the Bocchiccios take one of their own as a hostage? Nothing comes of it except losing a member.

Just to clear it up the five families is based off the real five families of New York so yes the Corleones are one of the five families since there are only five Mob families opperating in New York.

still the novel said 5/6 families as stated above. so.....

based off of New York City - you still got Buffalo, NY and Rochester, NY -
http://www.americanmafia.com/26_Family_Cities.html

Some reasons why I've come to think that the Bocchicchios are the probably (not to a mathematical certainty) the fifth of the Five Families:

1. The other New York families seem to have territories in Upper New York State, New York City, and New Jersey. The Bocchicchios seem to fit pretty nicely in there, with a territory in the Hudson Valley.

2. They're given a detailed description in the peace conference chapter, just as the operations of Cuneo, Stracci,Tataglia and Barzini are described. It would have been silly to hold the description of the Bocchicchio operation until the New York dons actually arrived, because the long narrative description of the Bocchicchios at that point would have sidetracked the description of the peace conference.

3. The Bocchicchios are largely played for comic relief, but they are a substantial family. They're not just vendetta artists: they negotiated the terms of the conference. And they're powerful enough that they can project fear as far as the West Coast. Also, from Vito's statements, it seems he respects the Bocchicchios more than, say, the Tataglias.

4. Finally, I think the biggest stumbling block is just the mental dissonance between one family being both part of the war and also negotiator/hostages. But Vito had to make the first step in some direction. Who else could he turn to -- the police? It has to be either an outside family, or one of the Five Families that he trusts.

From the outcome of the novel, it's obvious that the Corleones only have a blood feud with Barzini and Tataglia. There's no reason to think that they wouldn't turn to any of the other families to set up a truce. And from all that is said about the Bocchicchios, it is clear that, if they agreed to a truce, they could be trusted to abide by it. They don't lie.

I don't have the book in front of me, and I have a couple of hanging questions: 1. does the book say that the Bocchicchio negotiator arrived at the conference early; and, 2. does the narrative of the Bocchicchios support their being one of the "six powerful families" by 1937?

These are just some things I think about when I should be working.

So that clears the question up, huh?

That point has been raised before, of course.

The Godfather is a work of fiction, set in the context of Mafia activities in New York City during the 'real life' time period that roughly parallels the time period covered by the book.

I believe that Puzo deliberatly created the Corleones as the 6th family so as not to invite speculation as to which of the actual NYC families they were meant to represent.

As has been stated here many times in the past, the personality characteristics, traits, and methods of Don Vito Corleone seem to be an amalgamation of the other five NYC crime family heads at the time.

Creating the Corleones as a fictional sixth family - in keeping with the fact that the book is a work of fiction - was deliberate.

If Corleone is 6, then who are the other 5?

NEVERMIND, I GET IT. YOUR PROLLY RIGHT.

fuck that ok the five families were as follows in order of power Corleone, Barzini,Cuneo,Stracci,Tattaglia. Those are the five families so get the fuck over it ok everybody?

Well gee....

My apologies -- I wasn't aware that we had a member who was so knowledgeable and so certain of the answer to this age-old question that they felt it necessary to punctuate it by expressing their concern for others and suggesting that everybody "get the fuck over it".

But since I now know that we do, I'll try and be more careful in the future and suggest to everyone else that they do the same.

And, of course, going forward, should any other questions or issues arise whre there seems to be some disagreement, I'll be sure to see to it that they are brought to your attention so that we may have the pleasure of your sharing with us another very complete, articulate, and erudite response.

Thank you for your time and efforts in getting involved in this thread, Toni, and I'm sure I speak not only for myself but for others as well when I say that I look forward to many thoughtful posts from you in the future.

This coming from someone who can't even spell Tony?

Take a chill pill, Toni.

SC I did it Toni on purpose I did it for Antonio I know that Antonio's have gone by Toni spelled T O N I such as Toni Cip. in GTA 3 and LCS read the manual it spells his name Toni.

Well, I guess he (or she) can spell "Toni".

How about if we say "this coming from someone who has no idea when to use a period, comma, contraction, or capital letter"?



Hmmmm.....Doesn't seem to have quite the same impact, does it?

I finally had some time to look at these questions that I left for myself (?):

1. I don't think there's anything that says the Bocchicchio negotiator arrived early; and,
2. The "six powerful families", in Vito's long narrative, are defined in terms of just being too powerful to destroy. Short of Mussolini taking power in the US, the Bocchicchios seem to qualify.

First, mustachepete, let me say (as you must already know) that this is one of two unresolved questions (along with "Who killed the Tahoe assassins?") that I enjoy discussing the most.

That said, I was somewhat surprised (and embarrassed) to realize that apparently I had somehow missed the opportunity to respond to your post which I quoted above.

As far as your Question #1 goes, I'd agree.

There is no reference at all in the novel to the fact that any representative of the Bocchicchio Family may have arrived at the meeting early.

Interestingly, however, I was looking through the novel yesterday morning for the historical references to the Bocchicchio Family and Mussolini and his rise to power and war against the Mafia to see if I could get a handle on the approximate time that the Bocchicchios might have fled Sicily for the U.S. and whether or not that would have been early enough to gave them enough time in America to rise to the level of power necessary for them to become “one of the 5 or 6 families to powerful to eliminate.”

So as I’m looking I came across yet another passage which I don’t believe has ever been cited in these discussions before, which reinforce the idea that there are five other families in addition to the Corleones.

I refer to page 87 of the paperback 30th Anniversary Edition, right before the beginning of Chapter 3.

It’s right after Vito has been shot, and Sonny is thinking to himself, analyzing the situation, trying to figure out who might be lined up against the Corleones, where Luca Brasi might be, etc.

Anyway, Puzo writes about Sonny’s thoughts:

“It was the first challenge to the Corleone Family and their power in ten years. There was no doubt that Sollozzo was behind it, but he never would have dared attempt such a stroke unless he had support from at least one of the five great New York families. (Bold and italics mine).

The key here is that the five families in that statement could not possibly be meant to include the Corleones since, obviously, Sollozzo would not be looking to the Corleones for support in a war against the Corleones, so he must be referring to five other families.

Notice also Puzo’s use of the lower case in “five” and the lower case in “families”, which suggests that he is writing about five separate families, not using “Five Families” as a generic term meant to include the Corleones.

Would it not make sense that, since the book is a fictional story, the mysterious sixth family represents the REAL New York mafia? I know that you can draw similarities between the others and real life families, but since the sixth is hinted at but never described (nor is their part in the war mentioned in depth) I always thought it was supposed to represent a real "Family" of New York.

I subscribe to the "five families INCLUDING the Corleones" theory, but I still find it odd that the meeting explicitly says that there were five OTHERS besides Don Corleone. Until I read that part I just assumed that "The Five Families" was a generic term for all of them. I'm not so sure now, though...

Creating an anticipation matched only when Kay heard Michael's car door slam in the Corleone driveway....

If I were determined to prove that there are five and only five families, I would respond that the phrase "such a stroke" worked to generalize the rest of the passage, so that it doesn't refer specifically to this situation where the Corleones happen to be the targets.

On page 95, Sonny also says, "I don't care if we have to fight all the five families in New York", but it's always good when the narrator says it, too.

I agree that there's justification for the historical backdrop of NYC's five Mafia families, but as I've said many times in the past....

I think that Puzo deliberately made the Corleones a fictional sixth family so as to avoid speculation as to which of the actual five families the Corleones were meant to represent.

That's the point: As a fictional sixth family, they are not meant to represent any of the actual NYC families.

And, strangely, from the very first time I read the book - way before the movie came out, that's the way I figured it.

Five NYC families, and here's a story about a fictional sixth family and their interaction with the "real-life" five.

And if I were determined to prove that there are five families in addition to the Corleones, I would point out the 8-10 references throughout the book that clearly and explicitly refer to five additional families, particularly the passage on page 281 at the meeting of the Dons, when Puzo writes of their arrival and states

The representatives of the Five Families of New York were the last to arrive and Tom hagen was struck by how much more imposing, impressive THESE FIVE MEN WERE than the out-of-towners, the hicks....

What could be clearer and more definitive than that?

Clearly, Puzo is writing about five other men besides Don Vito Corleone.

All of that evidence vs. the one single piece of evidence that argues against a sixth family:

Puzo's sloppy failure to name or describe them in the same scene.

I hope not. That would get us up to TEN families.

If the Bocchicchios are supposed to be the sixth, then they did get a long description in that chapter, it's just shifted by a few pages. Cuneo and Stacchi don't seem to have defined roles in the war, either, which was probably a good thing for them in the long run.

I was poking around on Amazon, and saw a review for a books on tape version with Joe Montegna. It apparently left out about an hour of material that's in the book, including the descriptions of the other warring families. So anyone who listened to the books wouldn't know what the heck all the confusion is.

Agreed.

Reviving old questions:

In the description of the peace conference, it is revealed that "When Michael had gone to meet Sollozzo, a Bocchicchio had been left with the Corleone Family as surety for Michael's safety."

Before meeting with Sollozzo, Michael asked Clemenza about the "hostage." Clemenza answer includes, "he is an important man in the Families."

If you subscribe to the theory that Puzo used "Families" as a collective term, then the Bocchicchios are included in it. And at least one of them is "important" in the underworld.

The Bocchicchios were important because they provided an important service to the other families. But they weren't one of the Five Families. The novel provides the needed detail. Puzo wrote that the Bocchicchios dominated a local garbage collection racket. But they were basically small-time. "A streak of stupidity ran through them," he wrote. Also they were "straight from the shoulder people who knew how to bribe a policeman but were unable to approach a political bagman" (I'm approximating those quotes).

SPOILER:

The hostage and negotiating business they created was based on the fact that, if the representative of the side that hired the Bocchicchio hostage were killed by the other side, the victim's Family would kill the hostage. Then the Bocchicchios would take their revenge on the other side. They were so simple-minded that nothing would deter them. "A Bocchicchio hostage was gilt-edged insurace," said Puzo. But the hostage business is hardly the stuff of one of the Five Families.
The story of how the Bocchicchios helped Vito to bring Michael back from Sicily is, IMO, one of the best, if not the best, backstories in the novel that never got into the movie.

I wonder if there was or is such a Mafia family.

I wonder, too.
"Felix Bocchicchio," the family member who was instrumental in getting Michael home, is the name of a guy who was mixed up in the fight rackets with Frankie (Mr. Gray) Carbo.

I brought up this subject when I first joined the Board years ago. The answer I got was that Puzo used the term Five families as a general reference and did not mean that there wer five families in addition to the Corleones. I accepted that the Corleones were one of the Five Families. Yes, in the novel there are plenty of references to the Five Families by the Corleones. But, again, I accept that Puzo used that term a s general reference to include the Corleones.

Here's a little nugget I gleaned for the GF1 transcript at http://www.thegodfathertrilogy.com



Who was "Carmine Corleone?" There's no reference to him in the novel...is there? Perhaps this was the intentional reference to the sixth family designed to clarify in the movie something FFC himself may have also questioned from the novel.

tony b.

Despite what the transcript says, what Vito says is "Carmine Cuneo." And later in the film, Michael lists "Cuneo" as among the dead heads of the Five Families.

But that's the movie. In the book, six families are named and described: Corleone, Barzini, Cuneo, Stracchi, Tataglia, and Bocchicchio.

Right about Cuneo. But I will never buy that the Bocch are a sixth family.

Using that argument (of the Families that are named) why not include the Molinari Family?

The Bocchicchios are not one of the Five Families.