TB, you've been out of Brooklyn too long.

Nobody aware of the mob's influence would have cooperated with the cops (ESPECIALLY in the 50's as pb pointed out).

I agree with the statement that Roth was trying to pen the killing of Pentangelli on Micheal, thus the reason for that line. As far as his brother goes. I would think that it served a two-fold purpose. First Omerta, this would serve as a reminder. Second, it showed Frankie that Mike could get to his family at any time. Even his brother from that two-mule town. If Frankie didn't cooperate not only would his brother die but his wife and daughter could be in danger. Of course not necessarily from Mike killing them since most times women and children are off limits (though it didn't matter when they killed Tattaglia) but possibly Mike could have them deported or everything taken away from them.

Thanks for all the thoughts - I guess we'll never know all the answers - One thing I still can't make my mind up on is:

At the time when he commits suicide - Who does Frankie think tried to strangle him Roth or Michael? Does he realize Roth played him?

As Tom told Michael in the boathouse: "Our people in the NYC detectives said that Frankie was half-dead, scared, talking out loud about how you [Michael] betrayed him..."

I think you should be concerned about holding your own water.

At my age, you're asking too much.

The "greeting" supposedly from Michael always (and still) confuses me. I first assumed that Mike really was behind it given (as noted) the unforeseen incident of the cop walking in (I did not and do not think that was planned but who knows?). The rest of the context, though, indicates that Mike really did not want to have Frank killed (at least at that time). On the other hand, maybe it was to show just how devious Mike could be (even to the audience). I always thought, given Frank's brother's facial expressions, that he was not a prisoner, per se, but there to remind Frank of his vows and the consequenses of breaking those vows. By the way, sort of the reverse setup between Frank and his brother and Mike and Fredo in that unlike Fredo, Frank's brother kept to the code and unlike Mike, Frank (perhaps) acted to save his brother

At my age, I know I'm asking too much!

I would like to put this to rest, once and for all:

Roth's plan was to lure Michael to Havana, get teh $2 million from him, and have him assassinated on his way home from the Presidential palace. So, according to Roth's plan, Michael would be dead before dawn on Jan. 1, 1959. The attempted killing of Frankie occurred days earlier. Why would Roth engage in an incredibly complex, incredibly risky, split-second-timed plot to have Frankie brought within seconds of death, and then have him rescued? So that he could testify against Michael at a Senate hearing months later, when, according to Roth's plan, Michael would already be long dead?

And, just suppose Roth did plan the cop's entry? How would he do it? Call a police lieutenant in the local precinct and say, "Hello, Shultz? Listen, I want you to send a cop to Richie's bar on Tuesday at 3:29 p.m. and 28 seconds...not 3:28, not 3:29 and 10 seconds, not 3:29 and 40 seconds--I want him there at 3:29 and 28 seconds. Got that? Good, let's synchronize watches..."

Years ago, someone here surfaced an early script treatment in which Roth was supposed to have engineered Frankie's rescue. It was never filmed that way. We can understand why: It's too far-fetched.

You are right TB. Pentangeli was to be murdered days before Michael was to be murdered. This would throw the Corleone family into chaos, and gratly strengthen the Rosatos and Roth.

It turns out it was Roth's good fortune that Frankie lived, and ratted Michael out.


Once everyone was out of Cuba, Roth obviously learned that Frankie was alive, and it then was very easy for him to place a call to Questadt and let this new plan to destroy MIchael play itself out.

Three possible reasons for Roth to follow the Frankie/Havana paths concurrently:

1. Just to follow through on existing lines of strategy, so that Michael wouldn't detect any changes and become unrelaxed; or,
2. To have a backup plan, which might be wise in light of what actually happened; or,
3. That the perjury trap was the actual trap, and that anything going on in Havana was the diversion.

I've never really dissected the transcript for the Havana material. How much evidence is there that Roth was actually preparing a hit?

One thing about the cop scene is what appears to be the cop's ignorance of who the Rosato brothers are. It seems that even a beat cop would be familiar in those days with who were the organized crime players.

Well, most New York cops back then were Irish. You know, not so much in the brains department.

Oh relax. I'm just kidding.

HEY!!!!!!!!

New York Times, June 6, 1987:

President Reagan warmed up for a taping of his weekly radio address today by telling an Italian-Irish joke, unaware that his remarks were being picked up on broadcast monitors.

At a recording session at the villa where he is staying before the economic summit conference, Mr. Reagan announced that he was going to tell ''my gondola joke.''

The President's first words could not be overheard, but the joke evidently concerned a gondolier who was singing ''O Sole Mio'' as he piloted his boat through the canals.

The rest of the joke went like this:

''And the Lord said, 'I wonder what would happen if I took away 25 percent of his brain power?'

''So the Lord did,'' and the gondolier sang, '' 'O sole, O sole.'

''The Lord said, 'Hey, I'll take half of it away,' '' and the song became '' 'O so, O so.'

''Finally, the Lord said, 'What will happen if I take all of his brain power away?' and He did.'' And the gondolier sang, '' 'When Irish Eyes Are Smiling.' ''

Guys,
I never understood why Roth would kill Frankie anyway. Wouldn't he wait to see if Michael would kill him himself? Since the case has been made that it would be next to impossible to stage the cop coming in, it just doesn't make much sense. Then again, I've been up 24 hours.

I think that Roth viewed himself as being in a long quiet defensive war against the Corleone Family. In a period of less than a decade the Corleones have murdered Roth's best friend, taken over several Roth associated or owned hotels and casinos in Nevada and made moves into Roth's Cuban domains.

Roth evidently doesn't have the muscle to openly resist these things.

But if he can get the Rosatos to kill Frankie, he can hopefully draw Michael into a long war in NY. This weakens the Corleones and could give Roth the opening to save his own interests. As a bonus Roth might even be able to convince the Corleone NY branch that Michael had turned against them and start a family civil war.

Also despite Roth's protestations of business above all he really did view Moe Green as a friend and may have been waiting patiently for the chance to pay Michael back by taking out someone near and dear to him. This idea makes more sense when we remember that the Pentangeli character is really supposed to be Clemenza.

Keep in mind that, after the Tahoe shooting failed, Roth went to Plan B: Lure Michael to Havana to be anointed his heir and successor, get the #2 million from him--and have him killed.

In his meeting with Roth in Miami, Michael said, "Frank Pentangeli is a dead man." Roth figured that Michael blamed Frankie for the Tahoe attempt. But instead of killing Frankie, Michael sent him on a mission to settle his problems with the Rosatos. Therefore, Roth reasoned, Michael didn't suspect Frankie in the Tahoe attempt after all--meaning that he might suspect Roth.

So, Roth arranged for Frankie to be killed in order to eliminate Michael's ally and caporegime in New York and thus clear the way for the Rosatos--his allies--to take over the "Olive Oil Business." The attempt on Frankie was staged while Michael was in Havana, inside Roth's trap. Roth figured that any move by Michael to replace Frankie with his own man would be moot because Roth planned for him to be dead shortly after the Presidential New Year's Eve party.

Stracci,

Forgive me for being late on this, but I just joined the forum.

I have answers for your questions about Frank Pentangelli. 1) who strangled him & why, & 2) why was Frankie's brother brought to America & presented in the court. Both of my answers are based on early script outlines as well as conversations that I've had over the years with various people that were directly involved in the production. So, my answers are not based on heresay or opinion.

For the first question, please refer to "Turnbull"'s latest post on 10/14/08. He's exactly right. Coppola couldn't have put it any better (kudos, Turnbull).

The second question regarding Frankie's brother: His brother was brought in because Frankie had children living in the same town as Frankie's brother. The intended threat (to Frankie) was that, had Frankie testified against Michael, the brother would kill (or ordered killed) Frankie's children.

This was from an early script outline that was never fully developed or (to my knowledge) ever filmed.

One other thing, regarding Part 2, there was a tremendous amount of footage filmed that was never included in the final film. Probably an extra hour's worth. The rough cut was well over 4 1/2 hours. Lee Strasburg suggested that they keep all of the footage and put an intermissin in. In fact, there is a spot for the intermission, but right now, I forget where. I'll have to get back to you on that. Unfortunately, the studio didn't want a long movie because, since this was such an anticipated film, they wanted to show as many times per day as possible. So, the studio ordered Coppola to cut it down to what you see now. As far as I've been able to gather, nobody knows where all of that footage ended up. The people that I met that worked on the film that I've spoken to, didn't know. I guess Coppola would be the only one who knows.

Anyway, hope this helps clear things up.

Great first post, JT. Welcome to the boards!

Thanks, SC. I just kind of stumbled onto this forum. It seems like a lot of nice people. It's nice to see that so many people love The Godfather films as much as we do.

Welcome aboard, JT I bet there are several hours' worth of scenes from II--probably enough to make a movie with significantly different scenes. If you've been visiting this site, you've seen the posts re. Michael entering Fabrizzio's pizzeria and killing him with his own lupera (stills appear in Harlan Lebo's "The Godfather Legacy"). Another part of an early script that never made it: Notice when the bigshots are meeting with Batista in Cuba, the Senate lawyer Questadt is sitting right behind Roth. But in the final cut, Questadt never again appears in Havana. An alert member found an earlier script in which Michael was to meet with Questadt in Havana. Probably the Questadt/Batista scene was shot to support that script, then left in even after FFC abandoned the idea of having Michael meet Questadt. Plenty more like that, we can assume.

Hi Turnbull. You're right, that scene where Michael kills Fabrizio WAS filmed but never used. After they filmed it, the studio saw the daily rush of the scene & deemed it too bloody for the times (remember, this was the early '70's), so FFC left it out. If you'll notice, the alternate scene where Fabrizio gets into his car & it explodes is even shot in "long shot" to pacify the exects at Paramount.

I've also heard about the Questadt thing with Michael. FFC was constantly changing the script every day. On Part 1, there were days when the actors would literally get the script the morning of the day's shoot. Which drove everybody nuts. Brando had his lines hidden taped all over the place (on his desk,on other actors,etc)
Even the last scene in Part 2 (the flashback scene) where all the kids are gathered for Vito's birthday. & Michael says to Sonny, "That's pop talkin'", it was. Those lines were written for Marlon Brando. Brando was supposed to be in that scene, but he had a grievence with Paramount after Part 1 so he said he wouldn't be in Part 2. FFC held out hope that he would show up at the last minute, but he never did. So, they gave Brando's lines to James Caan.

One of the stills of that scene in Lebo's book shows Fab covered with what looks like 2 gallons of Caro syrup. It's a wonder he didn't drown.

Another still from Lebo's book shows Robert Duvall with a cardboard strapped to his chest containing Brando's lines. Lebo tells that in the scene between Luca and Vito in Vito's office on the day of the wedding, Lenny Montana scotch-taped a piece of paper saying "F**k you!' to his tongue--and stuck it out at Brando during the filming.

Do you have Lebo's book? It's the bible.

No, I don't have Lebo's book, or any other for that matter. I've heard of it, but haven't picked it up yet. Most of my info is based on conversations I've had with people who worked on the production of the films. My dream is to meet FFC one day & really give him a good grilling. I'll get all of the info on the missing footage, & all of his views. But, so far, I've only gotten as close as the production people, some of the extras, Peter Bart from Paramount at that time, Al Martino, & Alex Rocco (who played Moe Green). Alex Rocco & Al Martino VERY informative.
Anyway, I'll get Lebo's book one of these days. I'm also praying for the release of 1 & 2 in chronolgical order (The Complete Epic, The Godfather Saga, et al) to be released on DVD. I guess it's sacreligious to admit that on this website, & I'm sure I'll be ripped apart for it, but I can tell you that most of the people that I've met who worked on the film prefer it that way. The movie flows better &, with all of the extra scenes added back in (Genco dying in the hospital,etc.), it really ties everything together.

So are just about all of us on this board.

The issue of whether the theatrical releases or the chronological version is better has been debated here often. My guess is that posters have been about evenly divided. I prefer the chronological version w/deleted scenes added for the same reasons you cited.

This all seems very logical expect you're omiting one key thing: before strangling Pantangelli, the Rosato brother (played by Danny Aiello) tells him, "Michael Corrleone says hello."

If the Rosatos are acting on Roth's orders, why would they lie to Pantangelli about who ordered his killing? It makes no sense.

I wouldn't worry so much about the Rosato brother (Danny Aiello) saying "Michael Corleone says, Hello".

First of all, that saying was simply an ad-lib by Danny Aiello, nothing more, nothing less. That line was never in the script. But Coppola left it in because, very often, when the mob kills somebody, they want the victim to know who killed them so it will be the last thing on their (the victim's) mind before they die.

Roth wanted Frankie killed because, once Frankie was out of the way, that would pave the way for the Rosato's (&,in turn, Roth) to take over the Corleone Family in New York.

Also, don't discount the Senate hearings. Remember, Sen. Questadt was on the panel questioning Michael. He was sitting behind Roth at the Havana meeting. Remember Fredo telling Michael: "The senate lawyer, Questadt, he belongs to Roth". So, it's safe to assume that, since Roth couldn't kill Michael in Tahoe OR Havana (remember, NOBODY expected the rebels to take over that night), Roth figured that he would have Questadt form a senate subcommitee to investigate Michael & get him on a charge of perjury. The fact that Frankie lived was a bonus for the senate (& Roth) because then, thinking Michael turned on him, he could be used as a star witness against Michael.

It was an ad-lib by Danny Aiello, and it made no sense, given that the Rosatos indended Frankie to be dead. So why did FFC leave it in? IMO, the line was not intended for Frankie, but for Richie, the bartender, whose ginmill was being used to set up Frankie:

It’s obvious that Richie is a “civilian,” not a Made Man, and he’s nervous as hell about his bar being used for a murder (“Carmine, NO, not HERE!” he screams at Tony’s brother (played by Carmine Caridi) after the cop enters and Carmine draws his gun). The Rosatos know that Richie might be squeezed by the cops investigating Frankie’s murder. Richie would be too fearful of the Rosatos to identify them as the killers. Still, as a civilian, Richie is not bound by the code of omerta. So they hand Richie something he can give the cops so that Richie can get off the hook: “The murderers said, ‘Michael Corleone says hello.’ ” That line would set the police after Michael, and would be picked up by the press-- another nail into the coffin of Michael Corleone’s “legitimacy.” Clever Roth!

Questadt wasn't a Senator--he was chief counsel to the committee. Yes, he was sitting behind Roth in Havana, but that was an editing mistake on FFC's part. In an earlier version of the script, Michael was to confer with Questadt in Havana. That part of the script was ultimately dropped. But FFC had already filmed the Havana sequence in the Dominican Republic, and he wasn't going to go back and reshoot it. So he left in the quick shot of Questadt and hoped no one would notice. He hadn't counted on the sharp-eyed people here!

Put another way: If Michael knew Questadt "belonged to Roth" because he spotted him sitting behind Roth in Havana, he'd never have perjured himself when Questadt showed up as chief counsel to the Senate committee grilling him.

I believe Roth didn’t arrange the Senate hearing: Questadt did:

Senate committees schedule high-profile, televised hearings (like the one on organized crime) months in advance, so the Senators can get the publicity and viewership they need to be re-elected. Roth would have learned about the hearings far ahead, and would have feared that he could be called as a witness. He also would have heard from his political contacts that Questadt was “for sale.” So, he bribed Questadt (as Fredo told Michael, “The Senate lawyer, Questadt, he belongs to Roth”) to keep him informed and to protect him. What’s more, as the chief counsel to a Senate committee investigating organized crime, Questadt would have lots of contacts with law enforcement, including the FBI and the NYPD—very useful to Roth.

When the cops broke up Frankie’s garroting, as Tom told Michael, “Frankie was half-dead, talking out loud about how you betrayed him.” The NYPD would have instantly recognized that they had a potential high-level Mob turncoat, and would have kept his survival secret—to protect him from assassination and to keep possible targets of Frankie’s revelations from learning that they were in danger of being exposed. Questadt would have heard about Frankie’s survival almost immediately.

Bingo! A lightbulb went off in Questadt’s head: He’d convince the committee chairman to ask NYPD to give Frankie to the Feds, where he’d be safer (on an Air Force base) than in a NYC jail or hotel room—and where he could be put to far greater use in the upcoming organized crime hearings. Why would NYPD agree to hand him over? Because they wouldn’t be able to nail Michael for the Great Massacre of 1955 and other crimes on Frankie’s testimony alone. They’d need corroborating witnesses for each of Frankie’s revelations--and they wouldn’t get any. But no corroborating witnesses are required to obtain Federal perjury convictions—only the testimony of one witness and some other evidence or testimony—and the Feds could trap Michael on perjury charges if Frankie’s survival were kept secret.

Then, another lightbulb went off in Questadt’s head: Roth would surely be interested—and would pay handsomely for—the knowledge that Pentangeli was alive and ready to testify against Michael. Roth by that time had escaped from Cuba and had recovered sufficiently from his stroke to listen. Roth prompted Questadt with facts about Michael’s crimes. Questadt was able to turn that info into questions for Michael when he was sworn in. Result: five counts of perjury against Michael.

Roth consistently showed himself to be preternaturally clever in laying traps for Michael, and in recovering from reverses. But Michael had a trump card: his Sicilian cunning. That’s why Michael ultimately prevailed.