There has been several posts over in the GF Trilogy thread in regards to different issues about Fredo. While I haven't read the book in several years, I occassionaly glance through it. I found an interesting paragraph concerning Fredo, which I totally do not remember from originally reading the book, so I thought I would share it with everyone. It takes place after Don Vito is shot and Michael and SOnny go to see Fredo, who has been heavily sedated.

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"Michael shrugged. He had seen soldiers in the same condition on the battlefield. But he never expected it to happen to Freddie. He remembered the middle brother as being physically the toughest one in the family when all of them were kids. But he had also been the most obediant son to his father . And yet everyone knew that the Don had given up on this middle son ever being important to the family business. He wasn't quite smart enough, and failing that, not quite ruthless enough . He was too retiring a person, did not have enough force."

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I find this passage very interesting because it is ironic that Fredo was tougher than Sonny as a kid. What also interests me about this passage is that in it's own way, it addresses the question that has come up from time to time about Fredo knowing or not knowing that what he did with Ola and Roth would put Michael's life in harms way. Obviously, as it says, and as many of us have agreed, Fredo was "not quite ruthless enough." He would NEVER ever do anything intentionally to hurt his brohter Mike.


Don Cardi

Hmmmm, yes DC, that's a very interesting passage. I haven't read the book in a while either but every so often, I glance through it. I think its time for me to have another reading.

I would say that, just from that passage alone, Fredo could not have known about Roth and Ola and their true intentions. Although, we all know that the movies don't always go completely by the book (i.e. Vincent Mancini... )

It IS an interesting paragraph, DC. It proves that FFC changed Fredo's character even in GF1, and of course 2.
It shows that Fredo was not so ruthless, yes, but don't you think that he was not as stupid and weak as he pictures him? Even in the scene with Moe in the book he does not look so hopeless. He is not the leader, though, and he amuses himself too much with young girls... But that's all.

Yes, movies don't always go by way of the book. However the character of Fredo in the movie is also a character in the book, and is very closely based on the character of Fredo from the book. Vincent is a character who is not based on any character from the book, he is the total creation of the writer of the movie script and therefore he could be portrayed in any manner that they want for the movie.

There is another passage in the book that I also found very interesting. It is when Clemenza and Paulie are driving Kay back to the hotel after the wedding, and while they are talking, Kay asks what kind of business is the Corleone family in and she is told that they have become the biggest olive oil importers in America and that "the old man thought that Mike was the best of his sons, the one who would inherit the family business."

Now we know that Vito had says to Mike later on that " I never wanted this for you." But yet Clemenza tells Kay that Vito thought Mike the best to take over the family business.

What we need here is Plaw's input. He is a master at remembering many different parts of the book. Hey Plaw, we need you!

Yes, it may also be time for me to pick up the book again and read it from begining to end.


Don Cardi

I don't think that Fredo was TOTALLY dumb. Not at all. I think that Fredo was given responsibilities that The Don, and later on Michael, knew that he could handle. Nothing really important. Nothing that required his having to use his brain to make calculative decisions, etc. Being a driver, running a whore house, learning the casino business, those were not potitions where he needed to be the smartest person around. Those were positions that if he screwed up or overlooked something, his mistake would not cost someone their life. So while I don't think that Fredo was completely stupid, I do think that he was "smart" (and I use the world loosel, in certain things. He could have never been smart enough to realize that Ola and Roth were setting his brother up for a hit. Fredo was too good hearted and would have NEVER willingly participated in anything that would hurt those that he loved.

Don Cardi

I don't think that's a contradiction. People in charge of a family, corporation, business, etc... all have the same "traits" if you want to call it that. They pretty much all have to do the same thing. IMO Vito sees these in Michael and says yes Mike would be the best to take over this family but he also has the skills to be Senator etc..

But he never said it, except in the movie!
This entire passage, about senator etc, is FFC's creation. It was not in the book, and really its logic is beneath criticism.
We know that he wanted this for Michael from the very beginning, as you pointed out, and there's one more mention of his plans in the 1-st chapter.
What seems equally obvious for me, is that Vito could never be so stupid as to think seriously about any political career for his sons. Their relationship with him would make it absolutely impossible. Their opponents would implicate them in ties with mafia even if they couldn’t prove it.
We remember what happened when Vito was shot. In Kay’s words: “….he seemed like such a nice man at the wedding. I can’t believe the things the papers are printing about him.” And Michael’s: “If the newspaper guys get ahold of your name and background you’ll be on page three of the Daily News. Girl from old yankee family mixed up with son of big Mafia chief. How would your parents like that?”
We may imagine WHAT will papers print if Mike joined any election campaign. Vito was too smart and realistic to pronounce all that Senator-Governor stuff FFC invented for him (I guess he did it later, because we don’t see that scene in the draft screenplay). And I can’t say that it was the most clever improvement he made to the plot, though it sounds so romantic. (And so unlike Vito…) And this was no time to lie, so he wouldn’t say “I never wanted this for you” either. Because he DID!
I think FFC got the idea from this Vito’s speech at the meeting with other Dons: “I have grandchildren now and I hope their children may someday, who knows, be a governor, a President, nothing’s impossible here in America.”
But children of your grandchildren and your own son – there’s a little difference….

If Vito doesn't say this to Mike ( I never wanted this... ) then it is not a contradiction as you pointed out.

And on the other side of the same coin, it wasn't a contradiction in the movie either, because Clemenza never says that Mike was the chosen one to take over the business, to Kay. Ok, I did not remember if the "I never wanted this for you line" was in the book or not. Thanks.


Don Cardi

"You think too highly of me....." (Virgil Sollozzo).

JustMe is much better at remembering exactly what was said in the book than I am.

However.....

Despite comments like (paraphrasing here) "Come see me after you graduate, I have plans for you" and "I never wanted this for you" (Vito), and "Your father and I discussed your future many times" (Tom), it is never really 100% clear exactly what Vito's plans were.

Certainly it is possible that while Vito realized that Michael was best suited of all his sons to eventually head the family, he still didn't want that life for him.

And the term "family business" is, really, a double entendre. Just about every time it's used, the characters are talking about olive oil, but we kind of laugh to ourselves because we know what the family business really is.

So when Clemenza uses the term with Kay, a complete outsider at that point, he was certainly referring to olive oil and not crime.

I'd like to comment on the earlier post about how FFC changed Fredo's character. I humbly disagree. In the movie, he is being sent to Vegas to learn the casino business. In the novel, he's sent out there because he has basically had a complete mental breakdown after witnessing his father's shooting. Once there, he not only recovers, but becomes a real ladies man and very sexually active, something that would displease his father. That may very well start the seeds of resentment in Fredo, that he was in his father's bad graces while Michael is the favored son and inheriting the whole business. Eventually, that resentment would build (slutty, drunken Deanna vs. Kay and her classy friends), as the differences in their lives becomes more apparent to Fredo. Although Michael's life was very far from perfect, Fredo thought it was.

DC, the apparently contradictory terms of the passage you quoted could be explained in one of two ways:
1) Michael remembered Fredo as being the "toughest" of his two brothers--because Fredo was tougher on him than Sonny was. If I recall correctly: After Michael proposes to kill Sollozzo and McCluskey, Sonny talks about how strong-willed Michael was. He says something like, "And Freddy had to beat the s*** out of you every day." So, perhaps in the family hierarchy, Sonny was too old to directly discipline or contend with Michael. But Fredo, who was closer in age to Michael, did.
2) It's another example of Puzo's sloppy writing. "Tough" Fredo is not sustained anywhere in the novel. But "not ruthless enough" Fredo is consistent. We see that side when we see him have a nervous breakdown after Vito is shot; when we learn that Moe Green slapped him around, and when he takes sides with Moe against Michael.

OMG poor Mike!
It happened only once a week!
And Sonny recalls that Michael used to fight himself too.
As to tough Fredo not sustained - how do you regard two girls at a time, then?

I always had noticed that the movies seemed to play Fredo up as the "dumb brother" more then the book.

You never seem to see Puzo write that Fredo was specifically weak or stupid. He never uses those exact words, something more vague like "obediant" implying that he can't think for himself, or "not ruthless enough" implying that he didn't have the courage(?) of Michael or Sonny.

It seems almost like Puzo attempted to avoid simply making Fredo a two dimensional character, the stupid brother, and tried to flesh him out more and make him complex. Where as the movies just go straight for the weak/stupid angle.

I must admit I was kind of confused when I read the book (after the movies), and saw these references to Fredo not as this utterly obvious dumb guy; it was more dynamic than that, especially with the vague wording, and left room for debate. You know, maybe all these inconsistancies were really to give us something to talk about 30 years after the fact. Anyway, this thread has my mind working, and I think I'll go for another read and watch the films.

One of the interesting things about "weak" Fredo is that he's a throwaway character in the novel and in GF--but not in II. In both the novel and GF, he basically has two scenes: his breakdown after Vito's shot, and his taking sides with Moe Green in Nevada. IMO, Puzo's purpose for Fredo was to a) flesh out the Corleone family; b) provide a raison d'etre for Michael stepping in to whack Sollozzo and McCluskey and then to assume leadership of the family after Sonny's murder; and, c) to enable Michael to give that "never take sides against the family" speech in Nevada, underscoring that Michael had made the transition from war hero who wanted nothing to do with the family, to Don-in-waiting, totally embracing Sicilian tradition.
And, though neither Puzo nor FCC could have known it then, Fredo's marginality as a character provided a powerful jolt when he turned out to be the family traitor in II. Turnabout's fair play...

I've mentioned this before, but one of my favorite scenes with Fredo is actually in GFI, right after Vito returns home from the hospital and everyone has left the room, only Fredo remains. He sort of ambles next to bed for a second and then slowly, very humbly and quietly, just sits down next to the window.

Although I don't know whether FFC had any sort of hidden meaning in this scene or whether he even realized that it was left in, I think it just says so much with so little. It's absolutely quiet for a second before Michael's sicilian scenes fade in, and the look on Fredo's face as he looks at his father just seems to sum up his whole sort embarresment that he couldn't protect his father and that he is somewhat looked down upon by the rest of the family.

I'm sure I wouldn't see all this hidden meaning if it weren't for Fredo's boathouse speech in Pt II, but to me, they seem to tie in togethor beautifully.

Call me crazy.

If it had been Michael though who had been the driver for his father that day, does anyone think things would have turned out differently? I thin Fredo was more sensitive than weak myself.

One scene in regards to Fredo which I thought was out of place and just put in to make him seem weak was the scene between Fredo and Deanna when she was falling all over the dance floor, and she was screaming about how he wasn't a "real man".

I always remembered this passage from the book and I was always confused on why they chose to portray Fredo like that in the movie or not even to mention him being to toughest as a kid


Joe Batters

He also learns to cook. I think it's been discussed on here before, but I think that in the book the three brothers are supposed to represent physical (Fredo), cerebral (Michael), and passionate (Sonny) men. The three characteristics in balance create a moderate, happy gangster like Vito.