Nice Rant TM. I agree with everything you said, especially the last line. In spite of being pissed at what has happened to this sport:

Nice post TM.

I have two words for Alex: A-Hole!

Is that one word or two?

well i kinda saw this coming since every big hitter is found out about steroids (except for sosa lol) one thing for damn sure for the sake of the game make maris the single season home run leader again, and make hank aaron the leading home run leader...and for bonds just make him an side note as well as anybody else who breaks any of these records and caught with steroids in there veins.

Nice post, TM. Fantasy baseball on my mind when I heard about A-Rod... "Hmmm... No wonder he was the #1 pick for so long..."

All kidding aside, this news is a little sad, not because I particularly liked A-Rod, but because I held out some hope that one of these guys will be clean. Nobody is above suspect now. The sucker in me thought it was possible.

Jeter is!!!

One guy who I think never did steroids was Jeff Kent, who just retired (best second baseman ever?). He was very public about how he hated people who did steroids because it made it more difficult for him to keep his job. Knowing how outspoken and brutally honest he always is, I tend to believe him. I think it was a big reason why he and Bonds always fought.

Another Met who became a Hall of Famer AFTER leaving Queens, a la Nolan Ryan.

Not a nice guy, but a GREAT second baseman.

Slow down cowboy. Best ever? Not even close.

Who else?

ryan sandberg is the best 2nd basemman...but kent is on the list though

umm... defensively sandberg is better...kent has him beat in offense lol

That's why I said it as a question. I'm not saying Kent is the best ever, but it's arguable. With the media East Coast bias I think Kent was usually overlooked, or shrugged off as having a few years better than he should be. If he played for the Yankees his whole career he would be in the talks for best ever, although his personality would have hurt him in New York. He's no Jeter. But since he spent most of his career in the west, he was commonly overlook during the first half of his career, at least.

And sorry if Yankee fans feel like this thread has been hijacked. But we are all baseball fans and talking about stuff like this is what makes the sport great. I hope you agree

First, if you're counting being able to play the position, Kent was a below average fielder at best. Offensively, he is not on the same planet as Rogers Hornsby, who I consider the best ever. Off the top of my head, Sandberg, Joe Morgan, Roberto Alomar, Jackie Robinson, and maybe even Craig Biggio would rank higher than Kent too. I'm sure there are some other players from before 1950 that have better numbers than Kent too.

I found this site which ranks Kent #12. I never heard of the player ranked #1.

i heard of eddie collins idk how though maybe from "Eight Men Out" (great movie) but yea if your not in pinstrips most likely nobody will not recorgonize you...sad to say though since alot of players are overlooked.

JL, why do you say he was "below average" with the glove? I'm not saying he was anywhere near the best with the glove, but definitely not below average. And his offense more than made up for whatever deficiency he had with his defense.

Would you agree he is the best hitting second baseman?

EDIT: to quote that site that ranks him #12 they said this about his defense: "A mediocre defensive player when he came into the league, Kent worked on his fielding and became adequate with the glove at second"

He was definitely below average, especially early in his career. He had zero range, and was terrible turning a DP. And he's not even close to be the best hitting 2B. Look at Hornsby's numbers. He's considered the greatest right handed batter ever at any position.

EDIT: OK, I'll give you "Adequate" later in his career.

What a crock. Are you referring to just second basemen or any other player in the league not on the Yankees?

well...not second baseman since the only good one i can remember that played was soriono before he got traded (correct me if there was somebody else that played 2nd for the yankees) but yea over the years people will recogonize yankee players over others...i may be wrong though, but i know if you menton mantell alot of people will know that name but if you menton ted williams a few or none will know who that is or what team he even played for. this is what i encounter at times...

So your criticizing the Yankees for having some of the greats to play the game be in their uniform? Sure they had the Babe but so did Boston. Yes they had DiMaggio, Mantle, Ford, Munson, Berra, and countless others.

But what about Ken Griffey Jr? Pete Rose? Sandy Koufax? Hank Aaron? Willie Mays? Barry Bonds? Cy Young? I think you see my point. I somewhat understand and agree with what you said (because a lot of the greats have been Yankees) but please don't say that no one else not in a Yankees uniform doesn't get recognized.

im not critizing the team or the players (i would though critize the media though)but yea i get your point...actually with mays and koufax (i might be wrong with koufax) played in new york while there teams were still there.

My 2¢ -

Eddie Collins is generally regarded as the best second baseman of all-time. He didn't have the batting average of Hornsby (but only Ty Cobb beat him) BUT he was considered a much better fielder and his .333 average wasn't too shabby.

He was before my time, so I can't add anything personal, but the best second baseman I ever saw was Joe Morgan. Good hit and field and a tough player. Honorable mention goes to Nellie Fox (White Sox of the 50s/early 60s).

There's no doubt in my mind that a decent player on the Yankees gets much more recognition than a decent player on any other team. It's more than just playing in New York City .... Mets players get good national recognition BUT less than Yankees players do. I suppose it has to do with the Yankee "tradition" of having big name stars.

FWIW - Koufax and Mays DID play in NYC at the same time but Koufax was not an effective pitcher when he pitched in Brooklyn. When we had three teams here, the 50s were a magical time in NYC. There would be ongoing, endless arguments over which team had the best centerfielder... Mantle, Mays or Snider. I always felt that Duke Snider was the best at that time and his stats certainly back up my thoughts (at least partially).

I don't know how I don't know who Eddie Collins was.

yea that what i mean, and good thing i got koufax right with being in new york. also too yea i see the duke being the best centerfielder at that time with mayes behind him...mantle would have been behind duke or hell in front of duke if he didnt had that injury.

True baseball royalty:

the only thing that can compete against that and beat it is the duo of ruth and gerhig...

Well, add to the mix Joe DiMaggio.... for one year (1951) he, Mantle, Mays and Snider all played outfield for a New York team. That'll NEVER be matched again!!

okay okay i forgot about might joe...one thing for sure though i wish baseball was like that now...i mean with the players playing just for the heck of it, and not for fame or money.

And that brings this conversation full circle back to A-Rod. If it wasn't for money, he wouldn't have gone to Texas.