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Re: Was Tom Really Loyal?
[Re: olivant]
#537080
04/10/09 09:44 AM
04/10/09 09:44 AM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 207 The Army Barracks
The_Don_Is_Dead
A Rabid Anti-Dentite
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I think that Tom would betray Michael but never Vito, he stood that long with Mike was cause he would of betrayed Vito's memory if he betrayed Mike.
The more i see, the less i know - John Lennon
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Re: Was Tom Really Loyal?
[Re: Turnbull]
#540896
05/17/09 02:23 PM
05/17/09 02:23 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 552 London
The Hollywood Finochio
The Don
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The Don
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Posts: 552
London
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Some excellent threads going at the mo.
Tom Hagen is one of the most interesting characters there is. Lots of screentime yet so underdeveloped. We know he is loyal to Vito to the end. To the absolute end, he loves him. He also loves Sonny, and thats where Mike's resentment comes in. The bond between Sonny and Tom probably made him jealous. He doesn't see Tom as his real brother, and when he assumed power, the first thing he did was demote him. He accuses him of not being a wartime consiglieri, but if anything, his calm coolness prevented the war from being a lot lot worse.
In part II Mike tells Tom that he kept things from him because he loved and protected him, but then proceeds to go back on this later in the film and humiliating him in front of Rocco and Neri...this to a man that actually ran the family for a few months. I think Tom reminds him of the days when he, HIS brother and HIS father were close knit and he was the kid brother having this life planned out for him.
The flashback scene is key i think, Mike HATES the fact that this guy, an adopted Irish kid, is telling him that he and his father have plans for his future, for me, that scene explains Mike dropping one on Tom time and time again.
Sonny - Well then, business will have to suffer, all right? And listen, do me a favor, Tom. No more advice on how to patch things up, just help me win, please
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Re: Was Tom Really Loyal?
[Re: The Hollywood Finochio]
#540901
05/17/09 03:00 PM
05/17/09 03:00 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,612 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,612
AZ
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The key to the Michael/Tom relationship is that Michael was an obsessive controller. He didn't need a consigliere because only his decisions counted, only his choices mattered. Tom was Vito's choice for consigliere, not Michael's. Tom was Sonny's choice for brother, not Michael's. What's more, Tom wasn't a wartime consigliere. He says so himself, in the novel. He blames himself for Sonny's death--"old Genco would have smelled a rat." Michael may have resented Tom for that, fairly or not.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Was Tom Really Loyal?
[Re: Turnbull]
#540911
05/17/09 03:22 PM
05/17/09 03:22 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 552 London
The Hollywood Finochio
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But old Tom didn't take the phone-calls....old Tom really didn't know anything about it...and old Tom wouldn't have been physically able to stop a furious Sonny.
Sonny - Well then, business will have to suffer, all right? And listen, do me a favor, Tom. No more advice on how to patch things up, just help me win, please
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Re: Was Tom Really Loyal?
[Re: The Hollywood Finochio]
#540992
05/17/09 09:54 PM
05/17/09 09:54 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,612 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,612
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You're not wrong, THF. But Tom was a lawyer by training, not a Sicilian like Genco. As a lawyer, Tom would think logically about Carlo: he'd never betray Sonny because he'd be the prime suspect and would be wiped out immediately. End of story. Genco, as a Sicilian, would understand that after Sonny beat and humiliated Carlo, he'd thirst for revenge--and to hell with logic. I believe that when Tom thought to himself (in the novel) that "old Genco would have smelled a rat," he meant that Genco would have warned Sonny that Carlo would have to be watched very carefully for signs of revenge. If Sonny took that advice to heart and kept his temper in check, he might have seen that Carlo's second beating of Connie was intended as a death trap for him.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Was Tom Really Loyal?
[Re: The Hollywood Finochio]
#541002
05/17/09 10:40 PM
05/17/09 10:40 PM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 171 pgh., pa
Guiseppe Petri
. 45 caliber
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what it comes down to is - for the story to have been told the right way, it would have to had been told one of the following ways - mini-series style - had 2 extra 4 hour movies filmed closer together - and ffc should have ponied up the needed cash to have all the original actors in it either as deleted scenes or play out their roles to flesh put their parts. i didn't read the book, but what was rocco's background? since there was a survey asking who was better clemenza or pentageli, i think we should have a survey on rocco or neri. i think neri would have never been out smarted by rocco.
Last edited by Guiseppe Petri; 05/17/09 10:40 PM.
Guiseppe Petri
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Re: Was Tom Really Loyal?
[Re: Guiseppe Petri]
#541008
05/17/09 11:04 PM
05/17/09 11:04 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 552 London
The Hollywood Finochio
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But could Genco have been Santino's consiglieri? Vito's yes, but Sonny's?
I'm not so sure.
Last edited by The Hollywood Finochio; 05/17/09 11:04 PM.
Sonny - Well then, business will have to suffer, all right? And listen, do me a favor, Tom. No more advice on how to patch things up, just help me win, please
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Re: Was Tom Really Loyal?
[Re: Danito]
#541131
05/18/09 07:27 PM
05/18/09 07:27 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 552 London
The Hollywood Finochio
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Mike wanted to be closer to Sonny, but Tom was always there. It made him resent them both.
Sonny - Well then, business will have to suffer, all right? And listen, do me a favor, Tom. No more advice on how to patch things up, just help me win, please
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Re: Was Tom Really Loyal?
[Re: Danito]
#541180
05/19/09 06:36 AM
05/19/09 06:36 AM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 552 London
The Hollywood Finochio
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The flashback scene at the end shows him to be a little resentful of Tom's presence.
Sonny - Well then, business will have to suffer, all right? And listen, do me a favor, Tom. No more advice on how to patch things up, just help me win, please
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Re: Was Tom Really Loyal?
[Re: dontomasso]
#541196
05/19/09 09:11 AM
05/19/09 09:11 AM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 552 London
The Hollywood Finochio
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But also added that he advised Mike on his decision
Sonny - Well then, business will have to suffer, all right? And listen, do me a favor, Tom. No more advice on how to patch things up, just help me win, please
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Re: Was Tom Really Loyal?
[Re: Turnbull]
#541230
05/19/09 01:39 PM
05/19/09 01:39 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 552 London
The Hollywood Finochio
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He claims legitimacy...but seven years...that SEVEN YEARS on, he's still forcing home casino licences, making deals with Hyman Roth and killing people. Why hasn't he bitten the bullet and welcomed Tom back to the fold in all that time? Why have Neri and Lampone grown ever powerful and Tom is now a mere lawyer?
And why did Vito think that Tom failed as a wartime consiglieri? Exactly why? He concedes that Sonny was a bad don...so Tom really isn't to blame is he? A consiglieri can only be as good as far as his Don is prepared to listen to him
(By the way, I disagree that Sonny was a bad Don, I worship the man)
Sonny - Well then, business will have to suffer, all right? And listen, do me a favor, Tom. No more advice on how to patch things up, just help me win, please
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Re: Was Tom Really Loyal?
[Re: dontomasso]
#541748
05/22/09 05:41 AM
05/22/09 05:41 AM
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Joined: May 2009
Posts: 12
Phoenix
Wiseguy
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Wiseguy
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After all at the beinning of GF III we leard that Tom had died. Of what? A fishing accident? Tom was portrayed as having died before the beginning of the story because Robert Duvall refused to take part due to a salary disagreement, that's all.
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Re: Was Tom Really Loyal?
[Re: Phoenix]
#541751
05/22/09 05:59 AM
05/22/09 05:59 AM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 552 London
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LOL...
Mike - Archbishop, this is Andrew, Tom's son...Pity about Duvall...I could have had him today instead of George Effing Hamilton
Last edited by The Hollywood Finochio; 05/22/09 06:00 AM.
Sonny - Well then, business will have to suffer, all right? And listen, do me a favor, Tom. No more advice on how to patch things up, just help me win, please
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Re: Was Tom Really Loyal?
[Re: Danito]
#546978
06/30/09 07:55 AM
06/30/09 07:55 AM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 126
antPhoenix
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The bond between Sonny and Tom probably made him jealous. What makes you believe this? I see no sign of jealousy in Michael, at least not in terms of brotherhood. Mike wanted to be closer to Sonny, but Tom was always there. It made him resent them both. I think that neither the film nor the novel show us that Michael was jealous. "When Hagen had entered the room Sonny had come rushing to embrace him. Michael realized with a faint twinge of jealousy that in many ways Sonny and Tom Hagen were closer than he himself could ever be to his own brother." - The Godfather, page 96. Forgive me for bringing back such an old topic, but I've been reading the novel again (it seems like the 100th time) and I got the itch to return to this forum and discuss some of the finer details.
Michael: My father's no different than any other powerful man, any man who's responsible for other people. Like a senator or a president. Kay: You know how naive you sound? Michael: Why? Kay: Senators and presidents don't have men killed... Michael: Oh... who's being naive, Kay?
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Re: Was Tom Really Loyal?
[Re: antPhoenix]
#546983
06/30/09 09:05 AM
06/30/09 09:05 AM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,718 Berlin, Germany
Danito
Underboss
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I think that neither the film nor the novel show us that Michael was jealous. "When Hagen had entered the room Sonny had come rushing to embrace him. Michael realized with a faint twinge of jealousy that in many ways Sonny and Tom Hagen were closer than he himself could ever be to his own brother." - The Godfather, page 96. Forgive me for bringing back such an old topic, but I've been reading the novel again (it seems like the 100th time) and I got the itch to return to this forum and discuss some of the finer details. Oh, thank you very much!
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