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Re: Susan Atkins - Manson Follower denied release
[Re: olivant]
#501032
07/21/08 10:54 AM
07/21/08 10:54 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296 Throggs Neck
pizzaboy
The Fuckin Doctor
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The Fuckin Doctor
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
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This debate comes down to assessing why we have a criminal justice system. Is it to deter crime, or to administer punishment, or exact revenge, or to rehabilitate people, or a combination of all of those? Which of those purposes does the continued incarceration of a dying inmate satisfy? Probably a combination of all those things.
"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
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Re: Susan Atkins - Manson Follower denied release
[Re: olivant]
#501056
07/21/08 11:27 AM
07/21/08 11:27 AM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 11,797 Pennsylvania
klydon1
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 11,797
Pennsylvania
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The administration of an effective and fair criminal justice system requires a dispassionate approach. While our sympathies for victims of violent crimes might might affect our view of punishment, it is important to know that considering the murder victim's family members' opinions on the imposition of sentence or possibility of parole is as unfair as allowing the criminal's family to determine sentence and parole. Both have passionate feelings and therefore should not be determiners of sentence. Nonetheless, both parties have a right to speak at sentencing about the defendant and victim, but their opinions of sentencing would add an emotional element that could disrupt the integrity of the process.
It is also important to note that in criminal cases, the prosecution is not brought by the victim, but by the State or Commonwealth (The People). That said, while the families of Sharon Tate and Susan Atkins have the most interest in the outcome of the parole hearings, they are perhaps the least equipped people to make such a determination as their opinions are no doubt enflamed by their passions.
I don't know whether Atkins should be paroled, but I think the decision should rationally evaluate the gravity of her offense (including heinous features), contrition, rehabilitation, what she accomplished or did in prison, and capacity for commiting other crimes.
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Re: Susan Atkins - Manson Follower denied release
[Re: Sicilian Babe]
#501518
07/23/08 03:25 PM
07/23/08 03:25 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,512 Right here, but I'd rather be ...
long_lost_corleone
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,512
Right here, but I'd rather be ...
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I just think that the victims and their families need to be given more rights and consideration in the judicial process than they currently receive. I think that they should have input on whether she's released or not. If we let the victims and their families control these aspects of the judicial system, we wouldn't have justice, we would have revenge. It would not be a fair and constitutionally supervised system... not that it particularly is now. It would be chaos. It's human nature to feel as if you're owed something and to want revenge, but you can only go so far before there are more important issues and ethics at hand.
"Somebody told me when the bomb hits, everybody in a two mile radius will be instantly sublimated, but if you lay face down on the ground for some time, avoiding the residual ripples of heat, you might survive, permanently fucked up and twisted like you're always underwater refracted. But if you do go gas, there's nothing you can do if the air that was once you is mingled and mashed with the kicked up molecules of the enemy's former body. Big-kid-tested, motherf--ker approved."
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Re: Susan Atkins - Manson Follower denied release
[Re: long_lost_corleone]
#501524
07/23/08 04:00 PM
07/23/08 04:00 PM
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 22,902 New York
SC
Consigliere
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Consigliere
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 22,902
New York
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I just think that the victims and their families need to be given more rights and consideration in the judicial process than they currently receive. I think that they should have input on whether she's released or not. If we let the victims and their families control these aspects of the judicial system, we wouldn't have justice, we would have revenge. It would not be a fair and constitutionally supervised system... not that it particularly is now. It would be chaos. It's human nature to feel as if you're owed something and to want revenge, but you can only go so far before there are more important issues and ethics at hand. Sounds a lot like the opening of "The Godfather".
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Re: Susan Atkins - Manson Follower denied release
[Re: SC]
#501538
07/23/08 07:10 PM
07/23/08 07:10 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,224 New Jersey
AppleOnYa
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,224
New Jersey
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[quote=svsg] ... I think Apple's point was that by releasing Atkins it would be a favor to her family. Yes, that was exactly my point. One of the internet pieces carried a photo of two of her female relatives in tears, I believe it was her sister & niece. Her family is pleading on her behalf as she is probably in no shape to do so. [quote=svsg] ...I think we owe it to the victims' families (who have spoken out against Atkins being released) to keep Atkins in prison... Right again. Look, all families stated their case on behalf of loved ones who can no longer speak for themselves. One side got their wish, the other did not. Susan Atkins will die in a hospital and probably get all the care she needs and be kept as comfortable as possible right to the end. Even though 39 years have passed and 'what's done is done' (as one brilliant poster states)...Ms. Atkins still gets a far better deal and far more compassion than HER victims received. Apple
A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
- THOMAS JEFFERSON
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Re: Susan Atkins - Manson Follower denied release
[Re: olivant]
#501541
07/23/08 07:21 PM
07/23/08 07:21 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,224 New Jersey
AppleOnYa
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,224
New Jersey
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This debate comes down to assessing why we have a criminal justice system. Is it to deter crime, or to administer punishment, or exact revenge, or to rehabilitate people, or a combination of all of those? Which of those purposes does the continued incarceration of a dying inmate satisfy? It could be a combination, except for the 'revenge' part. As Don Corleone would tell you, revenge and justice are two different things. True, it's pretty complicated in this day & age. In the case of Susan Atkins and her co-defendants, we have a criminal justice system to administer punishment for a crime so horrible it is still legend almost 40 years later. The 'continued incarceration of a dying inmate' satisfies justice. After all, her original death sentence was commuted to LIFE in prison. That means the rest of her life in prison. I will try to have a little more compassion for her than she did for Sharon Tate & her unborn baby. But I still don't think she should be released. Apple
Last edited by AppleOnYa; 07/23/08 07:21 PM.
A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
- THOMAS JEFFERSON
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Re: Susan Atkins - Manson Follower denied release
[Re: AppleOnYa]
#501543
07/23/08 08:05 PM
07/23/08 08:05 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,724
Double-J
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,724
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This debate comes down to assessing why we have a criminal justice system. Is it to deter crime, or to administer punishment, or exact revenge, or to rehabilitate people, or a combination of all of those? Which of those purposes does the continued incarceration of a dying inmate satisfy? It could be a combination, except for the 'revenge' part. As Don Corleone would tell you, revenge and justice are two different things. True, it's pretty complicated in this day & age. In the case of Susan Atkins and her co-defendants, we have a criminal justice system to administer punishment for a crime so horrible it is still legend almost 40 years later. The 'continued incarceration of a dying inmate' satisfies justice. After all, her original death sentence was commuted to LIFE in prison. That means the rest of her life in prison. I will try to have a little more compassion for her than she did for Sharon Tate & her unborn baby. But I still don't think she should be released. Apple Meh, they should bring back sparky. At least it would give me something to watch while I eat my popcorn.
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Re: Susan Atkins - Manson Follower denied release
[Re: AppleOnYa]
#501552
07/23/08 10:10 PM
07/23/08 10:10 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238 The Ravenite Social Club
Don Cardi
Caporegime
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Caporegime
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238
The Ravenite Social Club
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I will try to have a little more compassion for her than she did for Sharon Tate & her unborn baby. But I still don't think she should be released.
Apple
Well said Apple. I remember back in the 90's, one of the other Manson Family members, Patricia "Katie" Krenwinkel was supposed to go up in front of the parole board, but chose not to. I think that it was Barbara Walters who was interviwing her, and she told Barbara Walters that she decided NOT to go in front of the parole board because she herself felt that she did NOT deserve to be released. She said that as the years went by and she matured and grew older and had all that time to reflect on what she had done, she realized that what she partook in was so dispicable that she didn't even deserve to live, PERIOD. ------------------------------------- "I sat in a courtroom with a jury and watched with others. I saw a young woman who giggled, snickered and shouted out insults, even while testifying about my daughter's last breath, she laughed. My family was ripped apart. If Susan Atkins is released to rejoin her family, where is the justice?" - Paul Tate (Sharon Tate's father )
Don Cardi Five - ten years from now, they're gonna wish there was American Cosa Nostra. Five - ten years from now, they're gonna miss John Gotti.
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Re: Susan Atkins - Manson Follower denied release
[Re: AppleOnYa]
#501560
07/23/08 10:50 PM
07/23/08 10:50 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,029 Texas
olivant
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,029
Texas
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[quote=SC][quote=svsg] ... I think Apple's point was that by releasing Atkins it would be a favor to her family. Yes, that was exactly my point. One of the internet pieces carried a photo of two of her female relatives in tears, I believe it was her sister & niece. Her family is pleading on her behalf as she is probably in no shape to do so. [quote=svsg] Susan Atkins will die in a hospital and probably get all the care she needs and be kept as comfortable as possible right to the end. Even though 39 years have passed and 'what's done is done' (as one brilliant poster states)...Ms. Atkins still gets a far better deal and far more compassion than HER victims received.
Apple Some of ya'll are fogetting that comparing the action one takes against someone else with the action that government takes against someone is comparing apples and oranges. While justifiable action taken by an individual is a consummation devoutly to be wished, action taken by government must be justifiable or we are all in peril. Susan Atkins is supposed to get a far better deal because it is government that provides the deal. Remember, the Founding Fathers inveighed against the potential oppressions of government, not against the actions of individuals. It was the actions of government which they constraned through the provisions of the Constitution and, later, through the provisions of the Bill of Rights.
"Generosity. That was my first mistake." "Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us." "Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
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Re: Susan Atkins - Manson Follower denied release
[Re: AppleOnYa]
#501617
07/24/08 02:34 PM
07/24/08 02:34 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,512 Right here, but I'd rather be ...
long_lost_corleone
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,512
Right here, but I'd rather be ...
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Ms. Atkins still gets a far better deal and far more compassion than HER victims received.
Apple Yeah, because dying a slow painful death in a prison hospital where no one cares about you is a lot different than dying a slow painful death in a room where no one cares about you.
"Somebody told me when the bomb hits, everybody in a two mile radius will be instantly sublimated, but if you lay face down on the ground for some time, avoiding the residual ripples of heat, you might survive, permanently fucked up and twisted like you're always underwater refracted. But if you do go gas, there's nothing you can do if the air that was once you is mingled and mashed with the kicked up molecules of the enemy's former body. Big-kid-tested, motherf--ker approved."
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Re: Susan Atkins - Manson Follower denied release
[Re: olivant]
#501639
07/24/08 06:17 PM
07/24/08 06:17 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,224 New Jersey
AppleOnYa
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,224
New Jersey
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...Remember, the Founding Fathers inveighed against the potential oppressions of government, not against the actions of individuals. It was the actions of government which they constraned through the provisions of the Constitution and, later, through the provisions of the Bill of Rights. Well...if you're going to bring the Founding Fathers into it that's swell. But also try to keep in mind that in the time of the Founding Fathers, Atkins, Manson and the whole gang would've been probably been hanged the day after their trial ended.
A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
- THOMAS JEFFERSON
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Re: Susan Atkins - Manson Follower denied release
[Re: AppleOnYa]
#501640
07/24/08 06:42 PM
07/24/08 06:42 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296 Throggs Neck
pizzaboy
The Fuckin Doctor
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The Fuckin Doctor
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
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...Remember, the Founding Fathers inveighed against the potential oppressions of government, not against the actions of individuals. It was the actions of government which they constraned through the provisions of the Constitution and, later, through the provisions of the Bill of Rights. Well...if you're going to bring the Founding Fathers into it that's swell. But also try to keep in mind that in the time of the Founding Fathers, Atkins, Manson and the whole gang would've been probably been hanged the day after their trial ended. Good point. In those days, the right to a speedy trial meant the jury met in the am, the hangman crew in the pm.
"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
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Re: Susan Atkins - Manson Follower denied release
[Re: long_lost_corleone]
#501654
07/24/08 08:36 PM
07/24/08 08:36 PM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 17,300 New York
Sicilian Babe
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 17,300
New York
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Ms. Atkins still gets a far better deal and far more compassion than HER victims received.
Apple Yeah, because dying a slow painful death in a prison hospital where no one cares about you is a lot different than dying a slow painful death in a room where no one cares about you. I'm sure that she'll be kept medicated to minimize the pain. She'll die surrounded by her loved ones, or at least be allowed to say her goodbyes to them. She'll have time to make her peace with her past before she dies. That's certainly better than being held down and knifed to death while you plead for your life and/or the life of your baby, all time being told by your killers, "Shut up, bitch." As for the families having or not having input, I understand the idea of it destroying objectivity. However, during sentencing, the families of criminals are allowed to plead for them. What does that do to objectivity? I truly believe that too often the rights of defendants are trampled. However, I think that we too often forget that crimes have victims, and that those victims should have rights, too.
President Emeritus of the Neal Pulcawer Fan Club
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Re: Susan Atkins - Manson Follower denied release
[Re: AppleOnYa]
#501663
07/24/08 08:56 PM
07/24/08 08:56 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,029 Texas
olivant
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,029
Texas
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...Remember, the Founding Fathers inveighed against the potential oppressions of government, not against the actions of individuals. It was the actions of government which they constraned through the provisions of the Constitution and, later, through the provisions of the Bill of Rights. Well...if you're going to bring the Founding Fathers into it that's swell. But also try to keep in mind that in the time of the Founding Fathers, Atkins, Manson and the whole gang would've been probably been hanged the day after their trial ended. No cigar Apple. The strong abolitionist movement that laid down its roots at this time resulted in changes to various state judicial proceedings, criminal laws, and punishments. By that time the states already had a sophisticated system of judicial appeals that precluded the "probaby" that you refer to.
"Generosity. That was my first mistake." "Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us." "Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
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Re: Susan Atkins - Manson Follower denied release
[Re: Sicilian Babe]
#501667
07/24/08 09:01 PM
07/24/08 09:01 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,224 New Jersey
AppleOnYa
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,224
New Jersey
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.... She'll have time to make her peace with her past before she dies... I believe she already has made peace with her past. The Susan Atkins website (last updated 2005) is pretty interesting. http://www.susanatkins.org/But that doesn't mean I think she should be released. Oh, and olivant...strike that 'probably'...they would've been hanged the VERT next day. Apple
A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
- THOMAS JEFFERSON
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