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Barzini's relationship to Bruno, Luca and Sollozzo #566225
01/28/10 08:59 AM
01/28/10 08:59 AM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,718
Berlin, Germany
Danito Offline OP
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Danito  Offline OP
Underboss
Joined: Oct 2007
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Berlin, Germany
Three questions:
1) What was Barzini's strategy when Sollozzo went (or was sent) to the Corleones? If Sonny hadn't made his mistake, there must have been another idea in Barzini's mind. And what if Vito had agreed?
2) At what time did Barzini talk to Bruno Tattaglia? The novel tells us that after Sollozzo's visit Luca went regularly to Bruno's bars. Was Bruno instructed by Barzini in advance? Or did he call Barzini: "Hey, that old Luca is hanging around all the time in my bars, what shall I do with him?"
3) If Vito hadn't been slippin' and not sent Luca, what would Sol have done to stop that killing machine?

Re: Barzini's relationship to Bruno, Luca and Sollozzo [Re: Danito] #566229
01/28/10 09:57 AM
01/28/10 09:57 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso Offline
Consigliere to the Stars
dontomasso  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
Originally Posted By: Danito
Three questions:
1) What was Barzini's strategy when Sollozzo went (or was sent) to the Corleones? If Sonny hadn't made his mistake, there must have been another idea in Barzini's mind. And what if Vito had agreed?
2) At what time did Barzini talk to Bruno Tattaglia? The novel tells us that after Sollozzo's visit Luca went regularly to Bruno's bars. Was Bruno instructed by Barzini in advance? Or did he call Barzini: "Hey, that old Luca is hanging around all the time in my bars, what shall I do with him?"
3) If Vito hadn't been slippin' and not sent Luca, what would Sol have done to stop that killing machine?


1. Killing Luca was part of a master plan. They would kill the Corleone's best hitter and the Don in one stroke, thus crippling the family. Vito made a mistake sending Luca in the first place. It was well known he was extremely loyal to Vito, and he was hardly the best person to bluff his way past Tatt Jr. and Sol. I have always thought at the moment when Luca refused to shake hands on the deal he made with Sol, it was a signal that he was not being truthful. Sonny's "mistake" demonstrated a division in the family over the drug trade and it solidified the idea that if Vito said "no," Sonny might make the deal with him out of the way. Had Vito accepted, I believe they would have honored the deal, at least until Vito died, ad which point they would start chiseling into the Corleone family territories.

I don't understand the third question.


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: Barzini's relationship to Bruno, Luca and Sollozzo [Re: dontomasso] #566232
01/28/10 10:40 AM
01/28/10 10:40 AM
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Lilo Offline
Lilo  Offline

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What DT said on the first 2 questions.

I think the third question is how would Sollozzo had dealt with Luca, had the Don not tipped his hand and sent Luca into the lion's den so to speak.

So the Don is shot and we have an enraged Luca going on his roaring rampage of revenge...

I think that one way or the other just as Sollozzo and/or Barzini had already penetrated the Don's security, Sollozzo would have already devised a plan for dealing with Luca. The fact that Luca came to see him just made things easier for him.

But they would have removed Luca from the board by hook or by crook before they made their move on Vito.


"When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives."
Winter is Coming

Now this is the Law of the Jungle—as old and as true as the sky; And the wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the wolf that shall break it must die.
As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk, the Law runneth forward and back; For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.
Re: Barzini's relationship to Bruno, Luca and Sollozzo [Re: Lilo] #566243
01/28/10 02:14 PM
01/28/10 02:14 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 21
Don_Brasi Offline
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Don_Brasi  Offline
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i think that vito knew that a move on his life was going to be made and having a monster like luca around when it does would not help the situation. even after him being shot and the murder of his son he still wanted peace. but would luca allow this? i do not think so. maybe and this is a big maybe, vito being the great don who wasnt dumb, maybe he knew this would happen to luca... maybe he sent him to his death.. knowing that if they were succesful in killin him that luca would make more problems for the family and further hurt the corleones...

like i said big maybe

Re: Barzini's relationship to Bruno, Luca and Sollozzo [Re: Don_Brasi] #566250
01/28/10 02:47 PM
01/28/10 02:47 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso Offline
Consigliere to the Stars
dontomasso  Offline
Consigliere to the Stars

Joined: Feb 2005
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With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
This was a case of the Don not telling his consigliere everything. Tom had no clue that Luca had been sent as a ouble agent, and he tells Sol that he may calm Sonny, Tessio and Clemenza down, but that there would be nothing he could do to stop Luca Brasi. In a great bit of acting, Sol smirks and says something to the effect, well let me worry about Luca. Of course he already knew Luca was swimming withthe fishes.

BTW Tom's tipping his hand by mentiioning Luca's fierce loyalty gave Sol and Barz another insight into the Corleone operation's lack of communications.


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: Barzini's relationship to Bruno, Luca and Sollozzo [Re: dontomasso] #566261
01/28/10 05:48 PM
01/28/10 05:48 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,032
Texas
O
olivant Offline
olivant  Offline
O

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Posts: 15,032
Texas
Perhaps Vito's sending Luca was a tipoff as someone has pointed out. Just how much did that action influence Barzini's and Sollozzo's decision to murder Vito? That, in turn, calls into question how much a role Sonny's outburst influenced them.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Barzini's relationship to Bruno, Luca and Sollozzo [Re: dontomasso] #566267
01/28/10 07:58 PM
01/28/10 07:58 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,718
Berlin, Germany
Danito Offline OP
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Danito  Offline OP
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Berlin, Germany
Original geschrieben von: dontomasso
I don't understand the third question.

Sorry for my English today. What I mean is: How would they have killed Luca, if Vito hadn't sent him to Bruno?

Re: Barzini's relationship to Bruno, Luca and Sollozzo [Re: Danito] #566271
01/28/10 09:18 PM
01/28/10 09:18 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,724
AZ
Turnbull Offline
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AZ
I've always believed that Sol went to Barzini first. Barzini knew that Vito would say no if he knew that Barz was Sol's partner, so he advised him to go to Tattaglia: "Tattaglia's a pimp--Vito's not afraid of him." Barzini had nothing to lose: if Vito said yes, Vito's capital and police/political protection would help make Barz, Sol's hidden partner, rich and powerful. If Vito said no, Barz knew that Sol, as a self-respecting Sicilian, would try to kill Vito. If it succeeded, Barz would be on top. If not, the Corleones would take their revenge on the Tatts. So, Sonny's gaffe or no, Barz thought he had his bases covered.
2. Because I believe in the above strategy, I think Barz talked to Philip Tattaglia just after Sol approached him.
3. I believe that Vito sending Luca to make nice to Bruno was the ultimate signal that the plan should go forward. It was so transparent that Barz, Tatt and Sol knew Vito was running scared--and not thinking.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Barzini's relationship to Bruno, Luca and Sollozzo [Re: Danito] #566275
01/29/10 06:51 AM
01/29/10 06:51 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325
MI
Lilo Offline
Lilo  Offline

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325
MI
Originally Posted By: Danito
Originally Posted By: dontomasso
I don't understand the third question.

Sorry for my English today. What I mean is: How would they have killed Luca, if Vito hadn't sent him to Bruno?


Right.
Luca was Vito's Psycho for Hire and his Dragon. In a lot of books/movies and occasionally IRL, the most dangerous retainer is removed before the attempt on the big boss. If Luca hadn't come calling, Sollozzo would have had people take down Luca at his home. In the book, Luca realizes from a comment Bruno makes that the Tattaglias and Sollozzo have been watching him and verifying his schedule.


"When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives."
Winter is Coming

Now this is the Law of the Jungle—as old and as true as the sky; And the wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the wolf that shall break it must die.
As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk, the Law runneth forward and back; For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.

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