You're absolutely right, SC. This is what I was referring to. Thanks for posting it.

I wasn't trying to open a political debate either concerning Truman and/or LBJ. I was just using those examples to help illustrate my thought process. I don't think the valid desire to avoid political debates on this forum should mean that members have to avoid any references to political figures in their comments.

Vito, we understand by your analogies that you feel that Michael may have been just in the acts that he committed, and that Michael himself probably felt that he could justify his actions. Your reasoning is not in question based on the analogies that you keep providing.

But tell me something ; did Michael ever deliberately violate accepted principles of right and wrong? Was Michael honest or dishonest? Did he use unethical practices to get what he wanted? Did he deal with corrupt people of authority and / or partake in corrupt practices with them to get what he felt that he needed?

Thanks, SC! And thanks, Vito, for remembering it.

Michael was a Mafia don. Obviously, organized crime includes activities that are severely morally questionable at best--for example, union racketeering, forcing shopowners to pay protection money, etc. (I am less convinced when people talk about lives being ruined by gambling and prostitution, it seems to me that the people who provide these services are not necessarily any more responsible for destroying the lives of those who partake of them than liquor store owners are responsible for lives being destroyed by alcoholism). But there are reasons why me and many others had a problem with Michael being labeled a villain on the AFI list of movie villains. Even if one considers organized crime itself immoral, most of Michael's actions in the movies seem justified given the context he is operating in. One could argue that killing other gangsters is not something immoral on its face, given that the people you're killing, such as Moe Greene, Barzini, or Hyman Roth, have themselves chosen to live by the same code of behavior you are. There are exceptions--Michael may well have been able to avoid submitting to Geary's humiliating treatment without killing that prostitute (although Michael himself may not have ordered this). But still, giving the context he is operating in, Michael appears to be someone who, while involved in numerous immoral things, does not seem to be a person one can simply label "immoral" and leave it at that.

I think me and others are also hesistant to label Michael immoral or a villain because of why he came to be a Mafia don in the first place. While he certainly may have gotten greedy and consumed with power, he appears to have come to be a Mafia leader at least partially out of a sense of responsiblity to his family, to take up the mantle when his father was sick and died. There is also the issue of admiration, although this is more an issue when assessing Vito than Michael. It's difficult not to admire how Vito came to the U.S. from nothing, under horrible circumstances, and became someone hugely successful and powerful, creating a dynasty of sorts for his family, even if that ascent involved shady practices. There is something very noble and admirable about creating one's own destiny (as Vito put it, refusing "to be a fool dancing on the strings held by all of those big shots"), even if doing so involves means that aren't so noble. I think this is perhaps the most important factor in being reluctant to consider either Vito or Michael a villain in the sense that one would consider, say, Charles Manson or John Wayne Gacy or Hitler to be one.

And I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but if you're simply going to condemn Michael based on the questions you asked about him and leave it at that, then you have to do the same with many famous pezzanovante as well. I won't name names this time, but all the questions you posed about Michael could also be answered in the affirmative regarding numerous famous politicians, including many that are highly regarded (at least on the whole) by the public and historians. One might argue that there's a difference in that, unlike organized crime, politics isn't inherently about any immoral activities, but nevertheless, the comparison is valid in that it shows how someone can meet all of your criteria for being an "immoral person" and still not be seen as such by many people.

I've stayed out of this, Vito, but I'd just like to point out one thing.

You are from a very small town in Pennsylvania, where a guy like Don Cardi is from Brooklyn and has known many wiseguys throughout his lifetime. Same goes for me, being Italian-American and having grown up up in the Belmont section of the Bronx. I know these assholes all my life, and I'm almost 52 years old. Chances are, you never met with or had dealings with any mob types. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm just assuming that a non-Italian composer from rural Pennsylvania never had cause to meet with any of these guys. If that's the case, lucky you. I was a union delegate and then a business agent with the Teamsters in Queens for over twenty years, just so you don't think I'm one of these Internet pseudo mob "experts."

Do you think you might think differently about these guys if you had grown up around them and/or maybe lost a loved one to either mob violence or a penal institution?

I enjoy your posts very much, so I'm not trying to provoke an argument. I'm just asking.

Your point is well taken, PB. It's true, I haven't had dealings with anyone from the mob. But I think I should point out that the subject of my posts above was Michael and Vito. I wasn't talking about anyone from real life. I hope no one concludes that I consider the Mafia as a whole to be some wonderfully noble institution. I agree that the Godfather movies certainly do romanticize organized crime (or at least don't show all of it). I certainly wouldn't have a problem with, say, Jimmy or Tommy in Goodfellas, or Ralphie or Phil Leotardo from the Sopranos, being labeled immoral or an asshole.

Not to "pile on" or try to equate to what Pizzaboy has experienced but I have a lot of family in Chicago/Berwyn/Cicero. A couple of my cousins wanted to open a LEGITIMATE bar/restaurant/night club thing back in the 70's only to be met with a TON of headaches. First of all, we are Italian so having a vowel at the end of the last name came with an automatic stigma. Long story short, they had to make some "concessions" to "people" just to open the doors and they lost their asses in the process. Eventually, they got out from "under" and had to leave Illinois altogether. One of my cousins actually had to sneak back into Chicago unannounced just to be able to attend his father's funeral. He came for 2 hours and flew out that afternoon under the radar. These "men of honor" or "wiseguys" or whatever you want to call them are scum. ANYTHING for a buck - including ruining someone's life and/or taking it.

Then we are agreed. The Godfather movies certainly do romanticize organized crime as Vito assents and real life mobsters are much worse than anyone shown as protagonists in the films as PB and DC would likely concur. And there will be the peace on the board...

Absolutely.

But I must have strict assurance from VitoC -- as time goes by and his position becomes stronger, will he attempt any individual vendetta?




Actually, Don Cardi should have said this, but nevermind.

Look, Sonny. We are all reasonable people here. We don't have to give each other assurances as if we were pre-teens. After all....this isn't Myspace.

Lilo, When I meet with the VitoC's people, should I insist that all his analogies are legitimate analogies?

You talk about vengeance. Is vengeance going to "friend" you on Facebook? Or vote a "like this" for me or Pizzaboy? If anyone else on this forum is "unfriended", I'm going to start blaming some of the posters in this thread...

Mention it Don Cardi, don't insist.

And that I don't forgive. But, that aside, let me say that I swear on the souls of my fellow Board members that I will not be the one to use false analogies.

I knew it.... it was pizzaboy all along.

He's small potatoes.

Last time I stick up for you .

And what is the interest for Mark's Family?

Will you take care of Mark outta your share?

My compliments.

Pizzaboy came to my home and he asked my permission to get rid of Cardi. When I refused he tried to have me killed. He was stupid, I was lucky. I'll visit him son. The important thing is that nothing interferes with our plans for the future. Yours and mine.

Nothing is more important.

Settle these troubles with the pizzaboy / Mark brothers.

If I kill one, I kill them all.

Pizzaboy, do you know how they will come after you?

Mark, can you arrange security for pizzaboy, on your turf, where he'll be safe?

As long as we don't take separate cars - that will screw up all my arrangements.