My bad; didn't know we'd had one.

Regarding this board's censored features ..... YES (in a word).

You've been here long enough and we've been through this too many times.

You wanna fight censorship in newspapers, movies, etc..... knock yourself out (with my blessing). Just leave this board's very few censored words alone.

Fair enough?

I also think occurences of a certain word, phrase or cultural outlook can draw our attention to artistic limits.

Imagine if for instance my DVD of Griffith's Birth of a Nation (1915) had had its sequence of hooded KKK members heroically chasing black people to Wagner's 'Flight of the Valkiries' deleted? It's a politically abhorred film and shouldn't be diluted as such. Griffith is hailed as an innovative cinematic storyteller, but we shouldn't aid author festishism, or distort history, by fine-tuning it to our own wishes.

Yeah.

If we've been through those things, I've genuinely forgotten.

My post in question also used this board's censored words as an example; the wider point applied to censorship in general.

But yeah, fair enough.

This analogy fails Capo. No (sane) black American person identifies himself or herself as a N*****- not even the people who make their money using that word in film or music. If asked they would identify as "Black" or "African-American" or a few other descriptions that are now archaic. I can say with some confidence that's also true of black peoples throughout the diaspora. Whatever they call themselves they don't identify as "n*****"

"Gay" is nowhere near as offensive to people who identify as being attracted to the same sex as "sodomite" or "pervert" or "pederast" or "fa****". "Gay" is in and of itself no longer an insult. More to the point it's what many such people prefer to be called, just as people who used to be known pejoratively as "Gipsies" now seem to want be known as "Roma". It's generally considered polite to refer to people as they wish to be addressed. In fact it's more than polite; it denotes acceptance of their right to define themselves.

Using a racial slur to describe the president of the United States, however ironically, because you disagree with his politics or disagree with the Board's banned word policy, makes no sense.

I got black friends who call me ni**er and I'm white! I just wish everyone could say it. To me it's just a word. I'd love to be able use it in a positive manner and not worry about getting shot in the face. This is what's wrong with this world. I hate racism.

I can't believe that I'm hearing "It's just a word." It's NOT just a word. Every word has a deeper meaning and a history, and words should always be chosen carefully, not because of censorship, but to express oneself with true distinction and clarity.

The "N Word" reflects a history of fear, of anger, hate and subjugation. It reflects a time when people were considered property, to be bought and sold and used, and considered no more than livestock. It reflects a time when a people were considered lesser than, when they were denied the essential rights of freedom and education and free expression that were guaranteed to OTHER Americans. It reflects a time when people put their lives on the line to eradicate the usage of that word, and to bring those essential freedoms to those denied them.

Perhaps it's the fact that some haven't lived through those times. Perhaps it's pure flippancy. Perhaps it's racism. But a casual attitude towards it, the desire to bandy it about as if it were meaningless, is something I find appalling.

Now we have people who feel that we should only have "good" meaning words around?

Please people, I fully understand that you hate what this word now represents to many people, their feelings and fear.

But, calling for removal of words from our everyday use is as bad as putting bans of our rights or removing books from our reach or better yet the book burnings that have taken place years ago.


Removing the use of this word is not going to change what has happened then or what will happen in the in the future.

Reminds me of people who think that nothing happened during the second World War to the Jewish families.

And while we are it, yelling, and using cutting remarks at people who do not feel the same way that you do are almost as bad.


SB, it is not pure flippancy, or racism or a casual attitude towards it, or even the desire to bandy it about as if it were meaningless, it is called a difference of opinion!

and I do hope that you don't find that appalling.

Everyone please remember, just because you say it louder or meaner or put others down doesn't make your statement the winner. Most times it just shuts the other persons mind off to what you are saying.



Happy posting guys and lets keep the threads fun and interesting!

I never said the word should be removed. It has a history, and to remove it from our culture would be absurd. How can you learn from history if you try to erase it?

What I did read are some posts that feel it's "just a word". To me, that's wrong. It's not "just a word". No words are. Words have the power to move, to anger, to incite, to educate, to inspire. Words are incredibly powerful, and to dismiss them is, in my opinion, a mistake.

Personally, I think this is one of the most interesting threads we've had in quite some time. The discussion has been reasonable for the most part, and, at times, illuminating. I applaud Fame for posting such topics recently. It's great to have you back, Fame!

I agree. And most white people do NOT have a casual attitude towards it and know not to cross a line by using it in conversation. And most white people tend to cringe on the rare occassion they might hear another white person use it.

(Anybody remember that infamous Saturday Night Live skit between Chevy Chase & Richard Prior?)

The problem today is that alot of black people do have more of a casual attitude toward it, and do feel comfortable using it toward each other both in a friendly and derogatory way. Perhaps SB is correct in saying it's because they did not live through the history of it.

Which is why certain leaders of the Black Community, whatever their political leanings...are correct in discouraging (as opposed to 'banning') its use in any way, so that one day years from now it is never uttered at all and is only remembered for the dark part of U.S. history it represents.

Apple

Both you and SB are absolutely correct. Case in point. Several years ago while coaching my semi-pro football team, there were several African American young men who continually used that word in conversation. Many of the older African Americans, both players and coaches on the team, were offended by it, as was I.

Turns out that one day several of the young African American players came to me and asked why I was so turned off whenever I heard them use that word (I had implemented a rule where if the word was used by ANYONE, that person or player would have to do 100 push ups and 2 laps around the field)

I sat down with them and explained the background, meaning and what that word represented and you know what? When I was finished many of them told me that they were not aware of it's real meaning and what it represented and thanked me for educating them about it! They told me that they had been brought up thinking that it was a word that was used to show affection towards their peers!

From that day forward, if someone on the team used that word, I no longer had to say "2 Laps and 100 push ups!" Instead the young African Americans who now understood what a hateful and disgusting word it was would hand out the punishment!

As far as I am concerned ANYONE who uses that word outside of using it for the purpose of a discussion such as this, or to educate someone as to it's true meaning, is either mean, hateful or just plain ignorant!

DC,

Your post reminds me of when I was working (middle school)and the couple occasions where the "N" word was used between African American kids (not in a mean manner, they were friends). Of course the school would NOT tolerate that word as you might imagine, but these kids likely didn't know the full impact of the meaning of that word either I suppose??? I don't know, but it seems surely their parents must have discussed it at some point in their lives, no?

TIS

Who knows TIS. Speaking from my own experience with the young football players, as they told me, no one ever took the time to explain to them what the word really represented. So this could very well have been the case with your students.

There you go!
Perfect way to put it, without the drama!
Thank-You

Just a theory mind you...but I think alot of this casual attitude toward the word itself began with the late great Richard Pryor. His stand up comedy was full of that word and (unless I've got the wrong guy) even the title of one of his one man shows was: 'That (N) is Crazy!

He was absolutely hilarious, no doubt about it and an inspiration for many who came after him, including the equally hilarious Chris Rock.

But I think Pryor was one of the first if not THE first to throw that word around like it was nothing and on top of that use it to be funny. He may have contributed to making it 'acceptable' at least to his own people.

Apple

You are quite welcome and so, do I have brains now?
(Still pissed off about that..but let's get back on topic.)

I think Redd Foxx used it in his nightclub act before Pryor did. I still have a couple of Foxx's old albums (real vinyl ). I'd have to look at the copyright dates on them. But it's really neither here nor there. Pryor got the most attention with it because of the name of his standup act, and the famous album that followed it.

THANKS, pizzaboy...you're right about Redd Foxx.

I guess the difference is that he wasn't really nationally known until 'Sanford & Son' and of course he had to tone down ALOT for 1970's television. Very few really knew of his raunchy nightclub career (including me) until biographies started popping up after be became a star.

Pryor had the benefit of having his act filmed and distributed as a major motion picture release. I remember seeing it and don't think I stopped laughing throughout the entire thing. (Side note: There was a bit he did about how men cannot fathom how a woman can stop & start peeing at will that I still smile about to this day...!) Many more people were exposed to Richard Pryor than had been to the 'pre-television' Redd Foxx.

Apple

This has to remind you of Geroge Carlins famous "play on" the seven dirty words you can't say on TV.
The way he said them and defend them, it just made you laugh.

As I mentioned in an earlier post here, Richard Pryor stopped using it after a trip to Africa. As he said, it was a word that described wretchedness, and he vowed to stop using it.

Yes, I remember your post SB. It is to Pryor's credit that he made that decision.

Unfortunately for a few generations, more people became accustomed to his using it in comedy than heard about his revelation as to its true effect.

Apple

I will bet you a million dollars that all of these kids on your team knew exactly why this word was so controversial. You did not need to tell them. Everybody knows about the slave owners and especially black people. But this word wasn't always seen as a negative. It simply denoted "black skinned". Nineteenth-century English (language) literature features usages of the N word without racist connotation, e.g. the Joseph Conrad novella The ni**er of the 'Narcissus' (1897). The main character is a West Indian black sailor and in no way was he seen as a poor representation of black people. Words can have many meanings and whose to say what the true meaning is or better yet, the right meaning! In no way do I favor racism, but I don't believe in the power of words that are nothing more than some letters scrambled together. What I do believe in, is the power of the thought that is behind the word. You can walk up to me and tell me how bad I am when you're actually complimenting me and telling me how good I am. Yeah! and what about the word motherfucker. When you break that word down, it refers to people who fuck their mothers, but is that really what you think of when you hear it? Most of the time I hear it, it's not even a negative word. It's always like "What's up motherfucker" or "I love this motherfucker". People say it with affection now. I got many black friends and I never looked at them like they were different from any of my white friends. No, I don't use that word. Not because I think it's a bad word, but because of how other people perceive it.

Yeah, there are some brilliant minds in this forum, and the level of discussion is really high sometimes. Some of the threads in the GF section are truly amazing, for example.

Thanx a lot for the kind words!

To what extent does censoring a word censor history itself?
To what extent does retaining a word's original meaning despite its wide usage in different social contexts (because in different historical contexts) distort the development of language itself?

Lilo, point taken re my failed analogy. If ni**er isn't an official identification, it's still widely used in a lot of different contexts, none of which or most of which are not in any way consciously negative.

I don't agree 'it's just a word', but I don't think words have a fixed meaning removed or isolated from the context in which they occur.

Words have never offended me more than the intention behind them.

For instance, if someone called my mother a [BadWord], I'd be much more offended by the implication that that sort of thing would goad me into a reaction than the 'insult' itself.

BTW, I recommend the Serengeti & Polyphonic song "My Negativity", which says "My nega-nega-nega" in such a way so as to evoke the N word. Very clever response to the kind of rap music that embraces the word. I can't find a video of it.

The word might in another generation's time not be a racial slur, by the way.

The times in which its occurence in contemporary society is intended as consciously negative are, in fact, archaic - that is, its usage is archaic, not the word itself - by people consciously retaining its historical use, which is becoming daily diluted due to the development of language through history; by people, that is, behind the times.

Last summer, I had a minor altercation with another female driver, who appeared to be about 20 years my senior...right on my block where I live. Leaving out the details, the whole thing ended with her yelling the following at me, before driving away:

"I hope you drop dead, you c**t!!!'

Because this was another woman, and an old lady besides...I found and still find this quite hilarious. But if it were a man, no matter what age, I think I would've been pretty upset.

I doubt she expected or even wanted a reaction, her intent was to let off some serious steam.

Words DO have meaning, and in what context and by whom they are said can either magnify or diminish that meaning. But once they are said they cannot be 'un-said'.

Any wannabe intellectual can proclaim what they would do or how they would react IF such & such were said to them, but I really don't feel that life works that way.

No, I'm saying from experience that insults have never offended me more than the intentions behind them. And as such, I've no reason to believe it'll be any different for me in the future.

That isn't to say that somebody else won't break down into tears if they're called something they'd rather not be called.

Wannabe intelLOL!

I think the key point in all this discussion, is not whether you have the right to spell out any word you like, or spell out any "collection of letters" -- I think the key point is whether you choose to do so knowing that it will offend afro-americans out there, and mostly the elder generation.

Of course, you can argue that "they choose to be offended" and that you didn't mean to offend anyone, but the fact is that it does offend them regardless of your innocent intentions, because the word triggers bad memories and bad emotions they want to forget.

So if by not saying a certain word I can prevent that from happening, then fine I'm willing to make that "sacrifice".

I do think freedom of speech is important, but I can live with not saying a few words that I don't have to use.

And no, I dont think we ought to "police" ppl about it - I think every individual should think for himself whether to use that word.

And I'd like to add another angle to our discussion:

I ask you all: how do you feel about the Swastika?

Is it just a "collection of lines", just another shape?

Will you tell a Holocaust survivor, that this shape is meaningless, and it could be drawn feely if there's no mal intention involved?

If you happen to like this certain shape, do you think it's perfectly fine to print it on your T-shirt and walk the streets with it?

(nowadays, I think the symbol is mostly used by neo-nazis who spray it on synagogues and jewish graves)