Like so many people my age, I have been regaled through movies and literature with stories about the storied neighborhoods of New York City such as Brooklyn, the Bronx, Canarsie, Little Italy, the Bowery, and Flatbush (others?). I know that some of our Board members prbably grew up in one of these famous or infamous neighborhoods.

So, which would you say was the toughest?

That's like asking who makes the best pizza. Only a non-New Yorker would ask that question. There are too many good pizza joints and too many tough neighborhoods . But I don't think the neighborhoods are as tough as they were a generation or two ago. That's probably true for the entire country, not just New York. The city has become Yuppified, so it's become softer. I think that's true of most big cities today.

I like Rodney Dangerfield's answer the best:

"The football team at my high school, they were tough. After they sacked the quarterback, they went after his family."

I don't know about today, but some parts of Queens was not a barrel of laughs 20-something years ago.

But in general, it's not the area, but how you present yourself in the area, that matters more. Walk strong.

They used to beat up New York wannabes there.

If I had to pick only ONE neighborhood as the toughest I'd go with either East New York OR Brownsville, (Brooklyn). Both neighborhoods could argue for that title (of toughest) over a period of generations (Brownsville was Jewish in the '20s/'30s/'40s and home to Murder, Inc; later became black and home to street toughs like Floyd Paterson and Mike Tyson) ~ (East New York was heavily Italian in the early periods listed above - remember the early parts of "Goodfellas" took place there - and later Hispanic and black when city housing was built in the '50s).

I had a guy from New York come into my work today and after talking for a while, he was actually going on about how 'soft' New York had become now etc. He was a Latino fellow from Bushwick.

Funny you guys mention it being "yuppified", that applies to Major Cities worldwide now. Get your wrinkle cream, guys.

Hey, whisper!

Off topic, but interesting...

Camden, NJ, is notorious for being one of the toughest places in America. Last year it was #2, the year before #1. You don't stop at red lights in Camden!

Top 10 Most Dangerous Cities in America

1. St. Louis, MO
2. Camden, NJ
3. Detroit, MI
4. Flint, MI
5. Oakland, CA
6. Richmond, CA
7. Cleveland, OH
8. Compton, CA
9. Gary, IN
10. Birmingham, AL

The worst place in the state of New York? Buffalo (#17). Next is Rochester (#61) and Syracuse (#74). New York City in general? Pfft, a lowly #269, below the national average.

(Top 400)

Oh stop it, you New York wannabe. We eat Camden for breakfast.

Well that proves you've never been there...

What about Amboy? Remember the Dukes?

I grew up in Brownsville and East New York. I actually worked in the candy store that was HQ for Murder Inc. (17 years earlier). Got into plenty of fights in both neighborhoods. But, as Geoff said, it's how you walk...

The Amboy Dukes were from Brownsville, Brooklyn. They took their name from Amboy Street.

Where were the Rosado brothers from? They did murder in their grandmother's neighborhood!

Hey I know the Amboy Dukes. Never knew Amboy was a place though.

Not being a NYer (but admittedly a "wannabe") I often heard of Hell's Kitchen. I think there is even a tv show by that name. I had to look it up and found it is an area around/in Midtown that was a one time bad area but has cleaned up in recent years. You natives know all about these areas, but for us outsiders we are learning.

TIS

A long time ago, I read the novel titled The Amboy Dukes. It was an interesting read about ganglife.

The real-life Rosados (the Gallo Brothers) were from Carroll Gardens, Brooklyn (the same general Italian neighborhood in which parts of "Moonstruck" was filmed).

That's right. Now that yo mention it, I do remember the novel although I didn't read it. I am more familiar with the group. What can I say?



TIS

Remember the old Lark cigarettes commercial: “Show us your Larks.” Well, George Carlin used to say “They ought to try that Lark thing in the Bowery. Those guys will show you their Larks.”

It was a famous book about teen gangs and was very loosely based on the real life Dukes.

I figured you'd know the group, TIS.

The novel was made into a movie "City Across the River" and had Tony Curtis as one of the gang members in his first movie role.

Hell's Kitchen is a TV show, but it's a cooking competition. As for the neighborhood, that's where Mario Puzo grew up...

They call Hell's Kitchen "Clinton" now. A one bedroom will set you back about $2500 a month minimum. It's artsy fartsy and coffee shops have taken the place of all the old Irish bars. It's the personification of the word gentrified, or as I like to put it, yuppified. The "toughest" kids to come out of that neighborhood today have to go to Brown because they can't get into Harvard .

But years ago, yeah, that was one storied and tough neighborhood .

I'll go along will TB and SC about Brownsville/East New York. That area brought up a lot of tough guys. Even as recently as the 60s, Mike Tyson came out of that general area. But I'm surprised that no one mentioned the Lower East Side of the early 20th century. That area was legendary for being hardscrabble. There were loads of Italians and both Russian and Eastern European Jews that had to claw there way out of that neighborhood. Lansky, Siegel, Luciano and Costello grew up together down there, and loads of others like them (albeit not as well known). Also, you had a plethora of boxers come out of the area. Most notably Rocky Graziano.

Where was Five Points?

The Lower East Side, below Canal Street. The area is mostly government offices today (City Hall, police headquarters, various courts, board of health, etc.).

Novel was by Irving Shulman. Fictitious gang (based on real gangs). Big seller in the late '40's.

When I was 13, I had a girlfriend who lived on Amboy Street. Made sure never to visit her home after dark.

When my brother graduated college in 1969, the Vietnam draft was still on. If he agreed to work in an underprivileged area, he would be draft-exempt. He took a job teaching in the South Bronx, directly across the street from the infamous "Fort Apache" precinct house. I daresay that was one of the scariest neighborhoods in NY. However, most of it burned a few years later.

Jersey.

No, rrA, the topic is not "the toughest to live in".

?

Should've have typed 1969. (I've heard SB's story before).

Damn, that was a much longer war than I thought. I wasn't that high. Thanks for the correction. And here I thought I was losing it.......again.



TIS