JoeyCigars and all his alter egos were 65 of the 70 participants at Montagna's funeral. Now all we need to figure out is who were the other 5 people.

I never said the US/Canadian border wasn't porous. If you look at the DEA reports, there are plenty of busts/seizures involving OC groups trafficking drugs across the border. I said that, when it comes to Italian OC, actual examples of drugs being trafficked southward, from Canada to the U.S., are rather rare. There is little evidence to support the assumption that the mob guys in Montreal or Toronto were ever trying to tap into the NY market in a big way. Or that the ongoing killings up there have anything to do with a struggle over who will control that pipeline. A pipeline into and distribution in Montreal or Toronto? Yes. But not really from there into New York or elsewhere in the U.S.

maybe the others where whats left of the bonanno zip faction?

I always thought it was wayyyyy to much of a coincidence for all the Rizzuto bodies to start dropping the year Montagna got to montreal.

That was how many Italian prosecutors cited in their report. There's an extensive article about it below -

http://www.jeff-goodall.com/?p=2440

My sympathies but it shows that Sals family don't belong in this city.

Carmela, I would rather not see this thread (or any other) turn into a pissing contest.

Statements of fact, interpretation, speculation, conjecture and respectful debate are what makes this interesting to me.

Speaking for myself, I really do not care whether you or Joey is right or wrong (here or at Real Deal, of which I am also a member).

Please, give it a rest.

Ivy, let's agree to disagree.

I just do not see this being a beef over construction extortion or bookmaking.

I think it is drugs and power.

I think those smuggling routes have been in frequent use since Prohibition. I think the Canadian LCN / OC has plenty of contacts in South America and in Europe to move cocaine, heroine, etc into Canada and subsequently down into the US. That is their pipeline, no? Don't some of the Canadians have blood relatives in South America?

The Caruna - Contrera org (among other Canadian OC) has been smuggling forever. We both know the Bonannos have been neck deep in junk since the 50's.

Interestingly, the article states that Italian procecutors "named" 40 men, which doens't necessarily mean that this is their total membership.

I'm done in here now...

Speaking for myself, I'm content to avoid a lot of the speculation about the war and just wait for information to come in when it does.

That said, I've noticed that quite a few people here make the assumption that a big part of all this conflict is the drug pipeline between Canada and the U.S. Or, to be more specific, between Montreal/Toronto and New York. The thinking seems to be that the Montreal and Toronto guys have the product, because of their international connections, and so they are the suppliers to the New York guys, who don't have the same international connections, but have a market.

On it's face, this would make sense. Until one finds that the flow of drugs, at least when it comes to Italian OC, isn't going south for the most part. It's going north. And that's where it's staying. In other words, the Rizzutos and their guys in Montreal were smuggling cocaine and other drugs into Montreal and were distributing it in the local market there. Same for the Calabrians in Toronto. Except for some marijuana sent south across the US/Canadian border to New York and Florida, there is really little evidence of the Italians up in Canada - be they Sicilian or Calabrian, in Montreal or Toronto - importing drugs there and then smuggling it into the U.S. In fact, marijuana is the one exception, where most of it is going south from Canada to the U.S. But that's done mostly by Asian groups, bikers, and others.

Furthermore, I really have to question the claim made in one of the recent articles about the 'Ndrangheta operating under the radar in New York because law enforcement is focused on terrorism. If this were the case, how would the writer(s) of the article even know this? They get their information from law enforcement, not the other way around. A few years ago there was that massive bust, dubbed "Operation Reckoning" and "Operation Solare" that involved the Gulf Cartel, members of the 'Ndrangheta in New York, Canada, and Europe, as well as a few local NY mob guys, but that was largely about moving cocaine from South America and Mexico to the U.S. and Europe. Not to Canada and then into the U.S.

Finally, I have to at least question the size estimates made by some about the mob up there. If I'm not mistaken, the population in the greater Montreal area is about 3.6 million, making it comparable to Seattle or San Diego. And the population in the greater Toronto metro area is about 5.5 million, making it comparable to Philadelphia or Houston. I believe there are about 250,000 Italians in Montreal and another 200,000 in Toronto. Making both of them fall somewhere between Detroit and Cleveland, by comparison.

Personally, I don't have a hard time believing that the 100+ guys rounded up in the Project Colisee case between 2006 and 2008 were the bulk of the Rizzuto organization. It was certainly enough people removed to create a big enough power vacuum for the ensuing chaos to occur. And Italian authorities who cited the 7 'Ndrangheta clans in Toronto also cited about 40 people who made up the "Canadian cell" (or those 7 Toronto-based clans) of the 'Ndrangheta. And the Thunder Bay wing of things, at least until fairly recently, was said to be dormant. So I do have a hard time believing there are literally "hundreds" of Sicilian Mafia and 'Ndrangheta members in Montreal and Toronto. Or, frankly, in all of Canada.

From what I can tell, there is a hodgepodge of Sicilian and Calabrian OC elements up in eastern Canada. And both have had connections, or even members, in American LCN families in the past, which makes things more confusing. There certainly seems to be more of an "international" element to Italian mobsters in Canada, when compared to those in the U.S. And there are obviously still links between them. But it seems many tend to overstate those links, thereby conjuring up a much bigger and more widespread conspiracy. That's where we get into the theories about the Sicilians and Calabrians fighting over who will control the flow of drugs into Canada - and by extension - into the U.S. With a little decades-old payback thrown in for good measure. And it all being mastermind by the bosses back in Italy.

Well, I don't see it. The mob guys up in Canada may be more international than their American counterparts, but they seem to be as much Canadian as the guys in the U.S. are American. Some of them using their passports more frequently doesn't change that. They're local guys largely dealing with local issues within and between Montreal and Toronto, with more of an indirect and distant connection to New York or Italy.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

Those smuggling routes were used back when the Italians dominated the heroin trade. But that really hasn't been the case for the last 25 years here in the U.S. And they were never in a position to control cocaine or marijuana here. Once again, the Italians importing and controlling a big chunk of the drug trade in Montreal is one thing. But there's little evidence to suggest Montreal or Toronto is being by the Italians as a way station for drugs to New York. Look at the DEA seizures involving drugs going north as opposed to drugs going south. Except for marijuana and ecstasy, which involve other groups more, there is no comparison.

FWIW, that BC Bud seems to be the one drug that North America manages to make that's better then anything out of Mexico, South America or the third world.

I understand your point, but just because there are not a significant number of seizures going south does not mean it is not happening. There was an article in the papers here in Texas about the Mexican cartels (Sinaloa and Gulf) creating cells / networks all over the US and Canada. As I mentioned above, they are using fishing vessels, mid sea transfers to US and Canadian fishing vessels, which land in the Pacific Northwest, Eastern Seaboard and Canada, with most of it ear marked for the US markets. I think it was mostly cocaine, heroin and meth distribution.

I will try to find a reference for you.

Those smuggling routes were used back when the Italians dominated the heroin trade. But that really hasn't been the case for the last 25 years here in the U.S. And they were never in a position to control cocaine or marijuana here. Once again, the Italians importing and controlling a big chunk of the drug trade in Montreal is one thing. But there's little evidence to suggest Montreal or Toronto is being by the Italians as a way station for drugs to New York. Look at the DEA seizures involving drugs going north as opposed to drugs going south. Except for marijuana and ecstasy, which involve other groups more, there is no comparison.

Someone mentioned that Lorenzo lo presti was Sal montagna driver.

So that would make him an enemie of the rizzutos. His funeral was at loreto which is owned by rizzutos. Go Figure?
See below.
http://www.complexeloreto.com/obituaries.php?action=view&id=996

It's amazing how civil the discussion got after you posted that. Then you posted again.

As I said in your previous post (that I edited), keep shit from other forums off this one, please. Instigating will not be tolerated, either. Take it to PM or let it go. Otherwise, it's an entire disruption to the conversation.

Thank you.

Wasn't Vic Controni a captain in the Bonanno family.