Ha ha...I must be nuts! Here I have seen GFs so many times I can't count, I have it on DVD and today one HBO station had GF and another HBO had GFII on at the same time, no less. Here I am flipping back and forth as tho I haven't seen it before.

I know this has been discussed before, but maybe some new people would like to contribute.


In the scene where Kay tells Michael about the abortion, of course we know she was ready to leave and was determined to tell Michael she was leaving. But do you think she had intended to tell him about the abortion from the very beginning?

She talks about how she feels no love for him, and says "look at Anthony", implying he's been affected; goes on about the "Sicilian Thing" that's been around for a 100 years.

It seems she held it back until Michael brought up the miscarriage and then she saw that was the only card left to play in order for him to let her go. In which case she had to have known her chances of taking the kids with her were slim to none.

TIS

This is about as insignificant of a question you could possibly ask about The Godfather

Stylistic,

No, I think there have been more "insignificant" topics than this before. Many times we have had "what ifs" or "I wonders". It has often turned into thoughtful friendly conversation.

The good thing is we can all choose to ignore the topics of no interest or respond to those that do interest us. As long as we respect each other's ideas,it can be fun. Since this is so insignificant to you, I would assume you will be ignoring this topic and most likely won't read this, which is just as well I suppose.


TIS

i agree with u TIS, and also think kay dont want tell michael about the abortion stuff in the beggining, but she used that for make more easy the way to leaving michael, bacause he was very mad with her,and dont forget that,u know for his "sicilian way".

Agreed, but I was just stating that I found that to be a topic which required little or no speculation. Don't see how any scenario regarding Kay's stating of her abortion could be looked in to any deeper, thats all. It would have came out one way or another.

First, Sylistic - it would be better if you ignored this question.

Now...

I always thought that Kay really did have a miscarriage, and later lied to Michael about having an abortion. She wanted to hurt him so he would let her leave.

It would have been very very difficult for Kay to find a doctor to perform an illegal abortion. Kay was practically under "house arrest" at Tahoe. Hagen wouldn't let her out of the compound. Therefore, how could she go out and find a Doctor - WITHOUT HAGEN'S KNOWLEDGE - in the pre-Roe v. Wade days? I wonder if the mob ever had any control over illegal abortions? And, what doctor would perform an illegal abortion on the wife of Michael Corleone!!!???

Also, I don't think Hagen would lie to Michael. Therefore, Hagen also believed Kay had a miscarriage. Otherwise, we must believe that naive Kay was smart enough to fool Tom Hagen!!

I don't believe Kay ever planned to tell Michael of the abortion. It was if she wanted to spare him of this. But since Kay felt that Michael was un-yielding in letting her go. She played her trump card.
For years of not wanting to believe Kay had an abortion, I believe that she did. More than anything, she wanted the "2000 years Sicilian thing" to end. Her abortion was her contribution to its demise.

Plus FFC made it clear in the commentaries that Kay had an abortion.

Hmmm, good question.
Maybe Hagen was in on it, he is after all a very sympathetic man.
But it also seems unrealistic that she would have had access to an abortion

Stylistic...at just over 57 posts to your credit I'll assume you haven't been a member here long enough to know how completely wrong you are !!

I'm approaching 2 and a half years on the Board and trust me, I have seen topics/questions introduced that are less significant than toe cheese. (The color of Michael's ties somehow springs to mind...)

That said, I think TIS' question is EXTREMELY relevant and worthy of discussion AND speculation. I've thought about it many times and my opinion is that initially, Kay did NOT intend to tell Michael about the abortion; at least not at the moment she did. I think she knew him well enough to know how enraged he would be. She did not even intend to discuss that 'lost' child. He brought it up, and it was his cavallier attitude (...I know you're upset about the miscarriage, come back home, everything will be fine, etc. etc....), his utter blindness to the state of their marriage and his family...that frustrated her to the point of 'spilling the beans', so to speak.

AppleOnYa

I think it was wrong of Kay to have an abortion because how does she know the child will be like Michael i mean look at Anthony he's not like Michael and I think when she says she always loved Michael in the gf3 she wouldn't have married someone else if she loved Michael

Wow. This one blows me away. Enough said.

TIS, I don't remember this question coming up in the past year and 9 months. But I never gave it a thought that Kay only said abortion to rattle Mike (as the Dons Advisor suggests). But it does have merit. In the book, Kay becomes a devout Catholic. Praying along side Mama Corleone to save the soul of her husband. If we extend that persona into GF2, it is very feasible that Kay would not have an abortion and in her frustration and torment told Michael because she knew how it would hurt him.

Marycas if she did have an abortion don't you think i'm right?

DMC - you make two points in your previous post. Regarding abortion, you're never sure how the child will grow up, which is always an arguement against abortion. The other point about loving Michael I don't believe has any bearing on loving her second husband. Love is a very complicated, multi-faceted emotion. Kay could still love Michael in GF3, but not want to be married to him.

By the way as long as this was brought into discussion....Kay never claimed she was sure this unborn baby would grow up to be like Michael.

She simply said she wouldn't bring another one of his sons into this world.

Whether this child grew up to be like its father or mother or the family dog was not her focus...the concern was that it would be embroiled in this Sicilian thing of a Family Business, and THAT is what Kay did not want. When she gave birth to Anthony and then Mary, there was still the hope that Michael would bring the Family into legitimacy. With this third pregnancy she now knew that that would never happen. So rather than bring another child into this life, she ended the pregnancy.

Though free for discussion to those who insist... I don't think the issue of whether Kay was 'right' or 'wrong' is of much interest. What's more compelling in my opinion are the REASONS she did it...the circumstances of her life which led her to such a drastic step.

And it certainly IS a significant topic.

AppleOnYa

Don's Advisor,

Interesting theory that Kay never really did have an abortion. I never thought of that. I'm guessing she really did have one though, if for no other reason then that's what the storyline implied.

Yet, when you think about it, back then anyway, most of these abortions took place in back alleys, or sleazy areas of town. I doubt Kay had any connections like that, but who knows.


TIS

Unhappy as she may have been, Kay was a member of a wealthy, prominent family and I'm sure that even in her day, she would have been able to arrange for a relatively safe abortion in a doctor's office. Let's not forget that though it was illegal at the time abortions were performed on movie stars and other well-to-do women every day, and I doubt many in Kay's position would have had to go to a back alley or sleezy part of town.

Apple

PS - and by the way I happen to feel that Kay DID have the abortion and didn't just make it up on the spot to rattle Michael. If you look at the scene in its full context that's simply not where she was coming from and it's completely out of Kay's character to do such a ridiculous thing. Her intention when she walked in the room was to tell him she was leaving him. What she *stupidly* didn't anticipate was that he'd put up such a fight, unintentionally dragging out of her that deep, dark secret that she may have initially intended to take to her grave.

I doubt Hagen was in on it, but Hagen was no doubt to blame for the abortion - in Michael's eyes. Remember, Michael gave Hagen complete power to watch over Kay & the children, along with the Family business. The fact that Kay was able to either sneak away for the abortion, or have it performed on the compound, was Hagen's responsibility.

By the way, this is a good topic TIS.

Hey Gang,
back in the day, there were doctors who did abortions for rich women..especially for unwed movie stars (Marilyn Monroe comes to mind), and of course the good doctor of Deanna Corleone, Dr. Jules . It goes to show you if you have money, you can do whatever you want.

I would not be suprised if Kay called the doctor to the house. What do you think Tom will do? Ask Kay personal questions???

Welcome back DK,

You do have a point. I guess even back in the day, money talked.


TIS

Tom knew that Kay was pregnant. All Kay had to do was tell Tom that she was NOT feeling good and needed to see the doctor. Tom would not have refused Kay that request thinking that she is pregnant and if something were to happen because He refused to let her leave the compound or see a doctor, Michael would have gone nuts on him! So my theory is that Kay deceived Tom into thinking she really needed to see the doctor, then her and the Doc told Tom that she miscarried.

Don Cardi

true but wouldn't tom have gone with her or get someone to go?

They wouldn't have gone into the exam room with her. I'm sure these guys weren't pacing around waiting for news. All the doc would have to do is tell them she had a miscarraige. I don't think any of them would hav questioned it.

Appleonya - yes but by saying that is what she is implying

It's become a pretty decent sized thread, DMC...could you please specify what the heck you're referring to...???



Apple

Appleonya - I'm saying when Kay says "I wouldn't bring another one of your children into this world" she's implying that she doesn't want Michael's child because he'll grow up to be like Michael but how does she know that it'll grow up to be like Michael

Don Michael Corleone

I agree Don Michael, it does appear that Kay, after observing Anthony's unhappiness: He is sad, lonely, no friends his age and in desperate need of his father's attention. She does not want another son to suffer his fate. Then, Michael forcing him into the family's business when he comes of age. Kay knows that it would happen because the same pattern "Sicilan thing" has been occuring for 2000 years.

The best thing that happened to Anthony in GF 2 is Fredo as his surogate father. I could not have imagined what Tony was going through when he told his mother that he believed that his father killed him.

I still disagree. To me the implication is she wouldn't want to bring ANY child into the world who would grow up surrounded by the business in which Michael is involved...whether it was a boy or girl and whether it appears to grow up like him or not!

After all, she has her own husband's experience to go by. He grew up around in the same world, rebelled against it and swore up & down that '...That's my family, Kay. It's not me.' However time ultimately showed that it WAS him...and to a more dramatic degree than anyone could've imagined.

And again...when Kay gave birth to both her children she still held the hope that Michael would eventually bring an end to all of it.

Apple

Perhaps part of the reason behind Kay's decision to abort the baby is a desperate attempt to reclaim some control over her life. She never seemed to sit easily with being an obedient little wife who never asks too many questions, and she had found herself living a life which was a million miles from how she expected or hoped it would be.

When Kay met Michael I believe they were both students (correct me if I'm wrong folks) and Kay obviously fell in love with an idealistic young man who she connected with on an intellectual and physical level. Even when Michael started to change, she rather naively thought things could go back to the way they were. Yet independent and intelligent as she was, Michael seemed to have an almost hypnotic hold over her. Look at how obediently she gets into the car with him in GFI after he returns from Sicily.

The court hearings seemed to be the last straw for Kay. Her look during those scenes said it all.

Its difficult too say, though, whether she knew she was going to leave Michael when she had the abortion, or if she just had the abortion and thought at the time she'd stay with him and pass it off as a miscarriage. Perhaps she didn't know herself and was confused.

I also think its interesting that she appears surprised that Michael didn't know it was an abortion rather than a miscarriage. During that scene she gives him an incredulous look and says "Oh, Michael, you are blind", as if she never expected him to buy the miscarriage story.

Who knows????

Appleonya - Kay was 18 years old when she was dating Michael

DMC you are so obtuse!!

What has THAT got to do with anything she did AFTER marrying him???



Apple