This is a great thread i love hearing all the different theories, i can't wait to pick up the books.

Is there a way to buy these books online to view as i have trouble reading from real paperback books.

I'm sure it was Tommy Agro - Desimones wife says when she last seen him he borrowed 60 bucks from her, quite embarrassing for a guy that was supposed to be made

I know most don't have good things to say about Joe Doggs but he comes across as believable. He says it was Tommy Agro so I believe that version. Henry Hill is a drunken story teller.

yeah joe dogs and nick the crow seem like they are actually truthful informants. they aren't really star seeking. they also had valid reasons for flipping.

joe dogs looks like a great cook tho..

I read or saw the same guy that killed Tommy killed his brother also

yeah - and was also wanting to kill the last remaining brother, for a laugh probably

He joked about killing the last brother so he could hit the "DeSimone trifecta"

that tommy agro is a cold hearted guy ... seems a little nuts when you hear him on the wiretap..

There is a discussion of DeSimone and Foxy, as well as Gotti, in "Mob Killer," the book about Charles Carneglia at around page 50-51. In fact Charlie was packing a gun to a wedding because he feared trouble because of the DeSimone situation. That was when a court officer spotted the gun in a diner and got into a fight with Carneglia, who got busted for the gun.

yeah it's a good book .. just finished it last week...charles is fucking crazy man.. he had a life size cut out of ayatollah khomeini in his garage.. for target practice I hope

The whole desimone situation will always be mysterious because there is a couple of theories. One for agro and one for gotti. personally i always felt agro since he was a hitman and gotti although he was a brutal guy was not a triggerman instead he ordered many hits since he was capo. I do think the bergin crew killed Joseph spione who was desimone's brother in law

yeah agree with that ... I think they killed tommy's brother in-law because he refused to set him up

^^Jesus Christ.

who killed Roy Demeo?

The Mickey Mouse Club lit him up to get there button on the real deal

obviously The Iceman

You guys should check out the movie "At the Sinatra Club." It is also a book. The writer is Salvatore Polisi, who at the time claims to have been a Colombo Family associate. He also testified against Gotti in '85.

He says Gotti killed DeSimone for killing Foxy Jerothe, a made guy named "Melons", and he generally didn't like him. Plus, if DeSimone killed William "Billy Bats" DeVino, there is more motive. Polisi and Henry Hill knew each other, before and after they were both in witness protection. Polisi claims the all those guys knew each other and hung out together in the late '60s and early '70s as young men.

It is also possible that Thomas Agro and John Gotti, both made Gambino members, were both present when Tommy DeSimone was killed. His body has never been found. Lots of crews had reasons for wanting him dead, Luccheses, Gambinos, ie. So, to me, one, some, or a bunch of the motive theories could be true.

Salvatore Polisi also seems a lot more crebible to me than Henry Hill did sometimes. But, for much of it, their stories coincide, and the both believe John Gotti to have been the trigger man in DeSimone's killing.

That movies shit, watched the corny intro then switched it off.

agree ^ rented it on dvd and it was blury. maybe cause its an american disc on english tv?

i read a few chapters in the sinatara club its bad but the guy seems close to foxy guy they killed, the big question is why did they find bones of tommy in jimmy the gent bars backyard they dug it up when hill fliped? it was the bar in queens near jfk.

Yeah, the movie was pretty corny, but I am talking about the historicity of the testimony and experience of Sal Polisi. It has got to be worth something. His accounts make a few connections the weren't able to be made before.

I guess I didn't know that any remains of Tommy DeSimone had ever been recovered. Where is that documented?

I know that in '04, the police and FBI were looking for DeSimone's remains in Queens at the "mafia graveyard" where they found remains of Sonny Red and Trinchera before. I heard they didn't find and others.

Sal Polisi is pretty credible at least more than hill. Tommy was fucking and beating up Foxy's sister which is what caused foxy to threaten to kill tommy and then tommy being the nut he was killed foxy. In december of 78 gotti came to see sal and told him that it was time to take tommy out but sal didnt want to be involved. Now i dont think sal ever said that gotti was the triggerman but he did say that gotti orchestrated it and might have been present. Im sure angelo gene and even tommy agro who knew desimone was involved

Good point. Interesting.

here's a thing on sal polisi and his new book

http://www.fivefamiliesnyc.com/2012/07/preview-of-sinatra-club-my-life-inside.html

Awesome! Thank you!

Interesting post. I agree that Henry Hill isn't the most reliable of reference points. However I would say you have underestimated Burke's status within the hierachy.

Like Bufalino's driver John 'the rehead' Francis (ex-IRA) hitman there were associates of the mob who were more revered in status than made men because of how dangerous they were.

No one wanted to mess with Roy De Meo when he was an associate and besides, one thing Henry Hill did get right was the fact that in those days wiseguys (made men or not) were getting whacked, left, right and centre. It wasn't that strange for someone of a higher rank to be taken out. It was up to whoever did it though to cover their tracks.

Jimmy Burke was a more important figure in the New York underworld even if he could never be a made man. In the film you can see him telling the made guy that he was disrespectful, something an associate wouldn't be able to do you would think but obviously Jimmy Burke had the status to tell him that he was being a "little offensive, just a little bit". Also, it is implicated he was involved in the hit, but never received the same punishment as his status in the underworld dwarfed Billy Bats.

Another mob figure who was Irish with a very high status was Fat Tony Salerno's right-hand man John Sullivan. It was John Sullivan's job to execute the hits carried out by an another Sullivan (Mad Dog) on the West Side Of Manhattan in the 70's.

Another underworld gang that had equal parity with the Kansas City Mafia was Buster Wortman's East Side St. Louis gang that worked in cohorts with the Kansas/Chicago Outfit until the 80's.

Ray Flynn blew up John Spica (man alleged of having involvement out the hit on Martin luther King) in a deadly war akin to the Clevelend bombing wars of the 70's.

In fact what set this apart was that Ray Flynn's connections to the Outfit stopped him getting whacked but eventually he double-crossed the mob but unlike Danny Greene he won the war with the Kansas City Mafia by aligning himself with the Syrian mob and blowing his way to the top of the St. louis underworld.

He was a ruthless man, so dangerous that he actually managed to win a war against the mob in their prime be it against one of the less powerful mafia families. However, the Chicago Outfit could have intervened but for some reason did not.

Joseph Aiuppa would not challenge the move for Flynn to blow his way to the top of the Union, even though he was warring against the Kansas City Mafia. Again, hierachy wasn't important and it is mysterious as to why Joseph Aiuppa did not intervene. Flynn's status and his East Side Gang's long term connections to Capone dated back through Berne, Stoneking, Buster Wortman and so on. More light needs to be shed on this case but you get my drift. Hirachies are there to be challenged. often they were, succesfully and with approval of one made man to another of similar status in the underworld who wasn't a made man.

The war raged for control of Local 42 in St. louis. That the Outfit would relinquish control to an Irishman like Ray flynn is unthinkable you would think but not to those who know how dangerous and fearsome a power Flynn was in the underworld at that time. Ray Flynn won control though in a battle the Irish mob won. http://www.americanmafia.com/Cities/St_Louis.html


http://www.riverfronttimes.com/bestof/2008/award/best-book-by-a-local-author-582152/

Tommy DeSimone had a wife?