Yeah as a very interested researcher, and someone familiar with LCN... honestly I don't buy any of that shit.
Altho where there is smoke there is fire.
Other sources claim "The German" is linked with the Genovese somehow.

My theory? The Irish captain in the Merlino faction...I highly doubt that as well. It's probably an "outsider view" or local media hype moniker. More likely, he was a high-ranking associate of Merlino's who handled a handful of joint ventures. Several people claim they saw the German meeting with Merlino & Co in several bars in the Northeast years ago.

Genovese Consiglieri? Nah. I tend to think if anything he's involved in the corporate/political machination in New York now. And does the wind-and dine thing with top Genovese guys. Socializing. Backroom deals that sorta shit. Just a crook with a businessman facade now.

I know the two are linked somehow tho, as multiple 1st hand account and sources have corroborated. I'm pretty sure whoever wrote all that, have no real idea of Mob structure and tradition. And "outsider view" mistake I'lla ttribute that shit to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPz6X-vxeOk&feature=related
1:44-1:46

Supposedly Edward Harding.



Yeah, that ruling Irish crime on the Eastern Seaboard shit is a major, impossible stretch. Prolly just some hype, or an effort for people to grasp the transient nature of the German. With the exception of the German, and his politico-corporate ventures, financing, and endeavors; I think the current Irish racketeers in the Northeast are small-time at best. Not conspiracy worth stuff. Most likely common interests and coincident brough some of these seemingly isolated figures and groups into alignment.

Although, the guy goes on to say "Harding aligned his faction with the Irish Republican Brotherhood, The Westies and The Winter Hill Gang. He and Kevin Weeks of the Winter Hill Gang were instrumental suppliers of weapons for the Irish Republican Army's fight for independence from England." This kind of transregional connection is not unheard of.; Think Appalachian Meeting or the transregionalism of the gangster on Boardwalk Empire. Members of these groups could have transient marginal connections. But that would be the end of it. Just connections.

My guess?

*Edward Harding - People say he was in with Bruno. And was the mentor to "The German" and Eddie "Irish Thunder" Burke. He died in 2007 sources claim

*"The German" - After rising in Philly he is now semi-legitimate business man, who has joint ventures with members of the Genovese family (Legitimate and otherwise). Most likely through resideual Genovese interests in Philly and their link with Edward Harding, who was linked with Bruno. Figure he moved to New York to further legitimate enterprises.

*Eddie "Irish Thunder" Burke III - More of muscle, likely when "The German" was coming up. Is the major street guy in Philly's Northeast. After the power-vacuum that "The German" left. Is apparently the grandson of originally K&A crook Eddie Burke.

*William "Billy Shamrock" Harding - Decendant of Edward Harding. Mostly legitimate running a string of bar's in the Northeast, where he most likely dabbles in gangsterism, using these as fronts and base of operations like the Gemeni Lounge or the Sunbrite Bar.

It's quite a compelling mystery for sure. THis is my take on it

Bear in mind that the media randomly assigns terms like "capo" and "boss" to gangsters who are prominent. They don't use the terms precisely like we do.

what part of philly do you live .. phila still has a huge irish population they lost kensington juniata park and greys ferry but they still have mayfair,tacony expect princenton ave which is an italian strong hold ,holmesburg, morell park, somerton, bustleton, parkwood,fishtown, pennsport,rhawnhurst,burholme fox chase

bridesburg, lexington park,byeberry

Yeah I heard of Fishtown being particularly notable, amongst the guys mentioned in my previous post



My thoughts exactly. I think this is where most of the misattributation of influential associates as actual -members- of the Mafia comes from.

When Louis Theoreux came to town to film "Law and Disorder in Philadelphia" the city that had been nicknamed "Killadelphia" as a result of wars between the K&A and different Kensington gangs had their dirty laundry aired to the world. In one scene, an under detective officer known as Hunter who worked in Fishtown is seen joking with "The German" just before saying that he runs over 80 blocks.

I've watched it and never saw Hunter talk with "the German ". Saw him speak about "Red" but not about Shundler.

thanks for the link man. I agree that the media often refers to high level associates as "Capo's" and often anyone involved be it an associate or soldier is referred to as a "mob boss".

Also the highest ranking gangster in a region or town usually gets this. The two most prominent examples I can think of off the top of my head are Anthony Spilotro and Lenine Strollo, who were called the "boss" or even "godfather" of Las Vegas and Youngstown, respectively. They were both soldiers.

I doubt that any of these guys exist. This thread is one of the top ten results whenever you search for their name. Their names also show up on other mob message boards. But there's not a single news article talking about these guys or whatever remains of the Irish mob in Philly. This is like Charles Herbert Gotti.

Uuhhh... what? I don't get the joke here; someone explain it to me.

I take it Charles Gotti is a friend of Stripes DeMarco?

Charles Herbert Gotti is the supposed bastard child of John Gotti or something. He doesn't exist. There was a page on wikipedia for a while describing him as some mythical super mobster. People would read that and then write about him elsewhere and make it seem like he actually existed. However, there aren't any news stories about the guy so it's obviously a fake.

Here's a link to a non-wikipedia version: http://www.enotes.com/topic/Charles_Herbert_Gotti

That's what I think about when I see all of these supposed Irish kingpins of Philly. Someone made them up, people write about them on message boards, and then write about them here. If there was any truth to them, even if they were small time, it would be in a newspaper somewhere. Hell, George Anastasia would have done a mob talk on them by now.

There's a problem with your theory. These people do exist. They're not just some literary invention. Now their level of involvement or notoriety is debatable

As for them hyped up to be super-mobsters. Yeah some writers do take that liberty, extrapolating assumptions. Probably very nutty.

Edward Harding's dead. SO no facebook there. And Burke prolly wouldn't have one.

I take all the stories on various message boards with a very big grain of salt. I don't really know the motive someone would trump up the underworld reputations of themselve via a bunch of sock-puppets online. It serves no purprose. And to put the rumour out there that he was a gangster would hurt Shundler's reputation I'm sure. Also, if you can take his word for it italiancutz apparently knows of him. What would be really helpful is a reliable source, to obtain the Lexis-Newxis information, which so many people seem to source, on various message boards.

I don't know. But that's what this thread is about. To boil down all the bullshit until the truth is revealed

You wanna see some more fake mobsters, check out that chart of the Milwaukee family that's been circulating for a few years. Some of the people on the list don't even show up on Google (or they didn't when I was actually dumb enough to take the chart at face value and searched for info on them).

They must be pretty goddamn circumspect gangsters if the internet doesn't know they exist.

In all 50 states there are some italian bookies who gives a shit

How the hell did I miss this? Who is the consigliere of the Genovese crime family?

There's also a bogus St. Louis chart. And a Kansas City chart that lists a whole bunch of names but certainly not all of them are made guys.

Word. You got a point. Pretty sure there's a bunch of small-time guys operating in a vestigial manner, in the old strongholds. Viable or extinct is a matter of opinion. I'm sure some remnant and "glorified crews" would argue about their independence and credibility.


Just because there ain't press coverage don't mean there isn't veracity.
Would you want to write a risky story about a bunch of seemingly unconnected hoodlums?

If there is any truth to any of this (Which is hard to see through he convolution). These Irish-American "toughguys" from Philly, are probably just that. Too loosely connected to be considered anything really big and newsworthy. Probably jsut a handful of prominent figures in Philly's Northeast with some level of common interaction.

Remember, the mafia was a myth before Valachi, opened the hood and let everyone have a look at the engine. It all boys down to coverage and a good story.

Alright, so these people might exist. I doubt they're tied to OC in any significant way though. In this day and age, people involved in OC tend to stick out. If they're just wannabes, I could understand that. If they're anything more than that, I can't see how they don't end up in a newspaper or on George Anastasia's radar.

I don't buy the IRA connections either. There's not much of an IRA around these days. The Provisionals (what most people mean when they say the IRA) have disarmed. Most of the top guys are involved in community jobs, paid for by UK gov't money. The remaining groups that haven't disarmed are the Real IRA, the Continuity IRA, and the INLA (Irish National Liberation Army). For the most part, they act like OC does in the US. Shake down businesses, smuggle goods over the border, counterfeit goods, etc. They say they don't allow drugs in the community but I doubt that. They don't allow other dealers in their community but they'll allow theirs.

As far as US-IRA connections, they were never too deep. They did a lot of fundraising through NORAID, for sure. And some guns crossed the Atlantic. A lot of that was done by IRA operatives though, not Irish gangs. The Winter Hill gang did a one time thing sending over some guns. For the most part, though, the PIRA got the vast majority of its guns and bombs from Libya.

I'm not saying that they don't show up in media coverage. I'm saying they don't show up in Google searches at all, which comb through government records. There were some people on that Milwaukee Fantasy Team list that didn't show up on anything.

the irish have taken such a beating in terms of losing thier rackets for a while now, probably due just as much to cultural assimilation as other ethnic groups pushing them out. thats why this topic is so interesting to me because from what i gather philly still has many predominatly irish neihborhoods. look at hell hitchen in new york, with the loss of the irish majority, the rackets soon followed, not to mention the nutjobs that were in charge of them seems like boston is the last place with any form of organization left with the remnants of the winter hil gang. also the west end gang in montreal still dabbles from what i gather. anybody have any idea of anything irish going on in or near chicago?

Yeah I'd say Boston is the last bastion of Irish Organized Crime in any traditionally recognizable form. Philly still apparently has a huge concentration in the Northeast still. NYC's Irish areas like Woodlawn, and Woodside, and Bay RIdge, are most likely settling down in terms of Irish-American population. The Kitchen is almost all gentrified now.

Chicago? Nothing to be heard from that front. Besides fiction. Cavanaugh family (Which has been proved false) and the Chicago Code. Think Irish-American crime there is pretty much dead, as an independant and viable force. Most likely any mick goons have assimilated themselves into what's left of the Outfit.



Maybe it's not newsworthy. Or there is little substance, or a link can't be proven. LCN news get's published and can be found easily because they're a much larger organization in most cases. And their is great interest in the stories, as Italian-American gangsters have been heavily romanticized over the years. So that could account for lack of press. Also teh LCN is a concrete organization with a top-down heirachy. Irish mobs don't work that way. It's more like a loose network, with several dominant figures.

And Anastasia seems to focus on Philadelphia's LCN so I doubt he'd be interested in tacking down rumours or a loose confederation of guys, who can't number more than 15,

And as for teh IRA connection. I'm not too sure about that. There are several IRA wings in operation. And the relationship between them in complex. SHundler could have ties to several of them. Not just the Provos, who've disarmed. Shundler has conenctions to Sinn Fein, which is noted as being an Irish Republican organization. Much like the IRA, who are more militant. He is said to be deeply involved int he IRish Republican cause. I think this tie is where the rumours of "Irish mob" activity is born. People have claimed these guys bill themselves under the facade of the Irish Republican Brotherhood. Which is noted on one of Shundler's sites.

I believe someone posted Shundler's court documents or something. I'm not too sure about their credibility but it seems to add credence.

There's definitely something going on. Whether it's traditional OC, or some kinda politico-criminal fundraising or legitimate business, it's hard to say. Altho I think there is definitely a connection.

George Anastasia has done features on Philly criminals that aren't LCN. The Pagans and a few black drug organizations at least.

I feel like Irish crooks would get a fair amount of media coverage if they existed. There's definitely an interest there, both in historical figures and fiction.

Sinn Fein is the political wing of the Provisionals. A lot of the leading figures in SF are either reputed to be members of the PIRA, like Gerry Adams, or were totally known to be members, like Martin McGuinness. With their military wing dissolved, Sinn Fein is just a political party at this point. They probably do some fundraising in the States but they're not a criminal organization.

The remaining IRAs are marginal in terms of influence and membership. Any international reach they have would be to the UK or maybe Spain. A lot of Irish criminals seem to end up in Marbella. American ties to the various IRAs were dwindling as the peace process made actual progress. 9/11 really put an end to it, though.

What are these sites you talk about? Care to share a link?

I have to say that Billy Shamrock and Irish Thunder are pretty cool (if slightly predictable) nicknames for any Irish mobster to have.......

They are mentioned on several boards similar to this one. Most likely by locals, whom have first hand knowledge, apparently. No real documented news sources, but...

Several threads on www.network64.com mention these guys. Be they posts or individual threads.

http://www.philadelphia-reflections.com/blog/1178.htm
http://www.city-data.com/forum/new-york-city/1051103-does-irish-mob-still-exist-3.html

And somewhere on streetgangs.com there was mention of them

Anyways those are just a few I recall. Info isn't authorative. But it's there. No if these were all written by the same screenname it could all easily be debunked. Otherwise, if youw ant to consider it, a motive for creating a bunch of fake account across the web to diseminate false informationd oesn't seem practical or any real gain in it for the perpetrator. Which makes me believe that there could be some truth to these various claims. However, the extent of their involvement with OC is questionable and clearly not concrete. Where this is smoke there is fire though, as I always say.

You claim to know a lot about LCN and know nothing. There has always been an Irish capo in the Bruno family mob as there was and is in the New York Gambino family after the Castellano and Westies agreement made over dinner at Tommasso's in Brooklyn.

Anyone who knows anything about LCN knows that there are all different ethnic and national groups that makeup the underworld.

Movies like Goodfellas with the 100% Sicilian stuff is absurd.

First of all, very few of the Merlino crew were ever made. When the Young Turks went to war with the Commission assigned Stanfa led mafia, they needed help from the K&A as well as other gangs. The Young Turks in exchange promised positions of prominence to leaders of these factions who helped them in the war.

Also, there are many many many officers in mafia families that were never "made". In fact, the majority of the mob's leadership right now IS NOT MADE. Many of the most cunning and powerful recognize that all participating in these criminal organization rituals does is make them subject to RICO statutes.

John Stanfa (former Philly boss), Ligambi and former boss Natale were NEVER MADE. Out of the last five Philly bosses (including current boss Steven Mazzone) only Merlino was a made man.

Its time to stop viewing the mob through Hollywood glasses and get a real understanding of LCN. Watching mob movies doesnt make you an expert.

AMEN EVAN!!! Thank you...too many people in this thread watch too many movies. Out of the last five Philly bosses only one was made.

Anyone from Fishtown who has any knowledge of the underworld is well aware of The German and Irish Thunder.

True. I saw that too. Further, the faction of the Irish world that survived the meth bust was opposed to narcotics.

How wouldd you know if this is fake...I think the judgemental nature of people on this thread who really have no idea is rather humorous if not pathetic.

Again...ignorant sayings by whomever said they dont believe in the IRA connection. Its not up for your opinion...its a fact. Who do you think armed the IRA? There are many many many books about the Irish mafia and NORAD. Also, if you want to learn more about the Philly, New York and Boston connections to the IRA read Kevin Weeks book that is entirely about these ties.

Get informed please before some of you people make comments. Otherwise you waste the time of those of us here who are actually doing some researcher and confusing those looking for good info.