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Re: Crime & Justice
[Re: olivant]
#643412
04/11/12 02:25 PM
04/11/12 02:25 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,471 No. Virginia
mustachepete
Special
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Special
Underboss
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,471
No. Virginia
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Like you, I am quite surprised by those attorneys' actions. However, they provided Zimmerman with limited legal advice that may have not addressed any potential legal claims against him; he did not retain them. As far as we know, they made no representations to any court as his legal representatives. Thus, any lawyer-client relationship did not exist. It's not necessary for them to make any representations or provide any advice to anybody to establish the relationship. If they got any part of Zimmerman's story from him, they're covered.
"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
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Re: Crime & Justice
[Re: Lilo]
#643430
04/11/12 05:06 PM
04/11/12 05:06 PM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
IvyLeague
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
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This is rather far afield from "crime and justice" but the people who are most fervently in support of gay marriage or abortion rights aren't in favor because some religions are opposed. They have non-religious reasons for supporting.
If all some person can point to as reason for their opposition to gay marriage or abortion rights is because their God said so, then no that's no longer sufficient post-Enlightenment. Thanks for illustrating exactly what I was talking about. Your "post-Enlightenment" crap is exactly what I was referring to. The secular, humanist, science(so called)-is-my-god, crowd that look at religion as a backwards, outdated, and irrelevant. Most of these types are on the left. So one can't argue that a certain portion of the left is anti-religion. As for Zimmerman, just charge him with 2nd degree murder (or at least manslaughter) and be done with it already. And I say that while, at the same time, believing Trayvon's death - while tragic in the larger sense - is no big loss to society. The kid was a thug.
Mods should mind their own business and leave poster's profile signatures alone.
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Re: Crime & Justice
[Re: Sicilian Babe]
#643458
04/11/12 08:19 PM
04/11/12 08:19 PM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
IvyLeague
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
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What makes you think Trayvon was a thug? I don't know a whole lot about his life. I know that he had been suspended for a week from high school for having a baggie with marijuana traces in it. Other than that, I don't know of any trouble he was in. Ivy, can you provide more information?? Well, for starters, I don't think Zimmerman (who's Hispanic by the way, despite all the white vs. black hoopla) just walked up and plugged Trayvon. It seems Trayvon did attack him. In other words, thuggish behavior. It may be annoying to have some guy follow you to make sure you're not up to mischief but I can't think of anything Zimmerman would have initially done to warrant being physically attacked. That said, when you're neighborhood watch, you're basically a glorified security guard. You observe and report. It seems Zimmerman went beyond that and confronted Trayvon in the first place, which set him off. In other words, Zimmerman overstepped his bounds. In summation: Zimmerman - charge him with 2nd degree murder and get him plead to manslaughter. Trayvon - not exactly a pillar of the community. No big loss.
Mods should mind their own business and leave poster's profile signatures alone.
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Re: Crime & Justice
[Re: IvyLeague]
#643462
04/11/12 08:35 PM
04/11/12 08:35 PM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 17,300 New York
Sicilian Babe
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 17,300
New York
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Trayvon - not exactly a pillar of the community. No big loss. No big loss? Tell that to his mother. I was asking what proof you have that he was not a pillar of the community. He was visiting his dad at his new home, so he was walking home with candy and iced tea at night in an unfamiliar neighborhood and an older guy was following him. Even if he DID attack him (and videos of Zimmerman shortly afterwards show no sign of blood or injury), wouldn't you? He was a young man with an entire life ahead of him. Who knows what life may have held in store for him. Edit: And Zimmerman has a white father and Latina mother. So the reports of him being white were half right, I guess.
Last edited by Sicilian Babe; 04/11/12 08:36 PM.
President Emeritus of the Neal Pulcawer Fan Club
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Re: Crime & Justice
[Re: Sicilian Babe]
#643463
04/11/12 08:44 PM
04/11/12 08:44 PM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
IvyLeague
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
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No big loss? Tell that to his mother. No big loss to society. I was asking what proof you have that he was not a pillar of the community. He was visiting his dad at his new home, so he was walking home with candy and iced tea at night in an unfamiliar neighborhood and an older guy was following him. Even if he DID attack him (and videos of Zimmerman shortly afterwards show no sign of blood or injury), wouldn't you? First off, I'm not sure what kind of "proof" you'd expect me to provide. Being as, I don't have access to anything beyond the info we've all seen online or on the news. Second of all, wouldn't I what? Would I physically attack a guy just because he's following me, suspicious of me, or even confronted me and asked what I was up to? NO. Ya know why? Because I wouldn't be up to anything bad, I don't have anything to hide, and I wouldn't respond in thug-like fashion. He was a young man with an entire life ahead of him. Who knows what life may have held in store for him. Judging by his temper and quick action to violence, I'm guessing at least one prison stint would have been in his future. But who knows? Maybe it would have been the Nobel prize of literature.
Mods should mind their own business and leave poster's profile signatures alone.
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Re: Crime & Justice
[Re: IvyLeague]
#643465
04/11/12 08:46 PM
04/11/12 08:46 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,658 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,658
AZ
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That said, when you're neighborhood watch, you're basically a glorified security guard. You observe and report. It seems Zimmerman went beyond that and confronted Trayvon in the first place, which set him off. In other words, Zimmerman overstepped his bounds.
When I took my Carry Concealed Weapon (CCW) course, the instructor emphasized responsibilities as well as rights, and when not to shoot vs. when to shoot. He said that 80% of all shooting situations are ambiguous at best. He also said that having a CCW isn't a license to become a vigilante or a self-proclaimed security guard without serious law enforcement training.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Crime & Justice
[Re: Turnbull]
#643467
04/11/12 08:57 PM
04/11/12 08:57 PM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
IvyLeague
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
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That said, when you're neighborhood watch, you're basically a glorified security guard. You observe and report. It seems Zimmerman went beyond that and confronted Trayvon in the first place, which set him off. In other words, Zimmerman overstepped his bounds.
When I took my Carry Concealed Weapon (CCW) course, the instructor emphasized responsibilities as well as rights, and when not to shoot vs. when to shoot. He said that 80% of all shooting situations are ambiguous at best. He also said that having a CCW isn't a license to become a vigilante or a self-proclaimed security guard without serious law enforcement training. Exactly. There was a better way Zimmerman could have handled it. Which is why he should be charged, in my opinion. You wanna know what I honestly think happened? Zimmerman saw a young black kid in a hoodie - whether he looked high or not is up for debate - and assumed he was up to no good. Trayvon probably recognized this and it pissed him off. But if you're Trayvon, you don't verify Zimmerman's assumptions by turning into the stereotypical violent, young, black male. You prove him wrong by just ignoring him. Or, if he confronts you, be civil and polite and don't give him any reason to have further suspicion.
Mods should mind their own business and leave poster's profile signatures alone.
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Re: Crime & Justice
[Re: IvyLeague]
#643468
04/11/12 09:16 PM
04/11/12 09:16 PM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 17,300 New York
Sicilian Babe
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 17,300
New York
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Because I wouldn't be up to anything bad, I don't have anything to hide, and I wouldn't respond in thug-like fashion.
What was he doing that was bad? Walking to his father's home? He was a young kid, with nothing in his pockets but a bag of Skittles. He was being followed - at night - by an older armed man. I would imagine he was terrified. I would have been. As for what proof I would expect to back up your statements, did he have an arrest record? Was he in a gang? Did he have drugs in his pocket? A knife? Those are things that I would classify as "thuggish". Walking home at night isn't.
President Emeritus of the Neal Pulcawer Fan Club
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Re: Crime & Justice
[Re: Sicilian Babe]
#643470
04/11/12 09:33 PM
04/11/12 09:33 PM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
IvyLeague
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
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What was he doing that was bad? Walking to his father's home? He was a young kid, with nothing in his pockets but a bag of Skittles. He was being followed - at night - by an older armed man. I would imagine he was terrified. I would have been.
As for what proof I would expect to back up your statements, did he have an arrest record? Was he in a gang? Did he have drugs in his pocket? A knife? Those are things that I would classify as "thuggish". Walking home at night isn't.
I don't know how else I can explain my position. Trayvon may have not been doing anything except walking home. Which is why Zimmerman should have, at most, observed from a distance and not confronted him. But, again, I highly doubt Zimmerman just walked up and shot him. I don't think Zimmerman was just sitting around waiting the the next black guy to walk by so he could shoot him. What has come out so far, plus common sense, suggests Zimmerman confronted him, there was some type of argument, and it escalated into a physical altercation. Enough to where Zimmerman felt he had to shoot. That seems the most probable situation to me. Trayvon didn't need an arrest record, or a weapon, or to be on drugs to react in a thuggish way.
Mods should mind their own business and leave poster's profile signatures alone.
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Re: Crime & Justice
[Re: olivant]
#643471
04/11/12 09:40 PM
04/11/12 09:40 PM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 17,300 New York
Sicilian Babe
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 17,300
New York
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If Zimmerman initiated a confrontation, even if Trayvon did react violently, I wouldn't consider him a thug. If Zimmerman caught him spraying graffiti, or breaking car windows, to me, that's thug-like behavior, although even that doesn't constitute shooting.
We do agree that Zimmerman acted foolishly. He's a young man, too, and his life is ruined over this as well. However, if he had heeded the advice of the police and just hung back and waited for them to arrive, what a difference a few minuted would have made!
This is tragic on so many levels.
President Emeritus of the Neal Pulcawer Fan Club
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Re: Crime & Justice
[Re: IvyLeague]
#643473
04/11/12 09:46 PM
04/11/12 09:46 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,292 NJ
carmela
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,292
NJ
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What was he doing that was bad? Walking to his father's home? He was a young kid, with nothing in his pockets but a bag of Skittles. He was being followed - at night - by an older armed man. I would imagine he was terrified. I would have been.
As for what proof I would expect to back up your statements, did he have an arrest record? Was he in a gang? Did he have drugs in his pocket? A knife? Those are things that I would classify as "thuggish". Walking home at night isn't.
I don't know how else I can explain my position. Trayvon may have not been doing anything except walking home. Which is why Zimmerman should have, at most, observed from a distance and not confronted him. But, again, I highly doubt Zimmerman just walked up and shot him. I don't think Zimmerman was just sitting around waiting the the next black guy to walk by so he could shoot him. What has come out so far, plus common sense, suggests Zimmerman confronted him, there was some type of argument, and it escalated into a physical altercation. Enough to where Zimmerman felt he had to shoot. That seems the most probable situation to me. Trayvon didn't need an arrest record, or a weapon, or to be on drugs to react in a thuggish way. Ok, so why do you think Zimmerman confronted him? What business did he have doing so? And if there was some type of argument and it escalated into a physical altercation...so...??? What would make Zimmerman have to shoot? Cause they may have gotten into a brawl of some sort? So? If you come up to me, in some kind of offensive way, asking me questions that don't concern you, minding my business and following me when all I'm doing is walking, you're damn straight I'm going to have some sort of words/argument with you. I'm probably going to start mouthing off at you and acting "thuggish". And? It may escalate into some sort of fight, probably a bad one. I'm still trying to find the reasoning behind Zimmerman shooting this kid. Zimmerman felt he had to shoot to protect himself from a fight he put himself into according to what you're saying, is that right?
La madre degli idioti e' sempre incinta.
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Re: Crime & Justice
[Re: Sicilian Babe]
#643475
04/11/12 09:51 PM
04/11/12 09:51 PM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
IvyLeague
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
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If Zimmerman initiated a confrontation, even if Trayvon did react violently, I wouldn't consider him a thug. If Zimmerman caught him spraying graffiti, or breaking car windows, to me, that's thug-like behavior, although even that doesn't constitute shooting.
We do agree that Zimmerman acted foolishly. He's a young man, too, and his life is ruined over this as well. However, if he had heeded the advice of the police and just hung back and waited for them to arrive, what a difference a few minuted would have made!
This is tragic on so many levels.
Well, there's your problem right there. By "confront," I mean Zimmerman approached him, talked to him face to face, perhaps in an accusatory manner. But even if he did that, that's no friggin' excuse to resort to physical violence. If Trayvon was the first to resort to physical violence, it does make him a thug. Zimmerman shouldn't have approached him in the first place but Trayvon shouldn't have reacted like he apparently did. Zimmerman's suspicions were probably based on a stereotype but all Trayvon did, it seems, was confirm that stereotype.
Mods should mind their own business and leave poster's profile signatures alone.
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Re: Crime & Justice
[Re: carmela]
#643477
04/11/12 10:01 PM
04/11/12 10:01 PM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
IvyLeague
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
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Ok, so why do you think Zimmerman confronted him?
I thought I already explained my theory as to why he confronted him. He saw a black kid in a hoodie, had the stereotypical image in mind, and assumed he was up to no good. What business did he have doing so? I thought I explained that to. I don't think he had any business confronting him. As a community watch, he should basically observe and report. If he really felt Treyvon was up to something, he should have called the police. Not act like he was the police. The only situation that would warrant him acting immediately himself is if somebody is attacking someone else and he tries to stop it. And if there was some type of argument and it escalated into a physical altercation...so...??? What would make Zimmerman have to shoot? Cause they may have gotten into a brawl of some sort? So? If you come up to me, in some kind of offensive way, asking me questions that don't concern you, minding my business and following me when all I'm doing is walking, you're damn straight I'm going to have some sort of words/argument with you. I'm probably going to start mouthing off at you and acting "thuggish". And? It may escalate into some sort of fight, probably a bad one. I'm still trying to find the reasoning behind Zimmerman shooting this kid. Zimmerman felt he had to shoot to protect himself from a fight he put himself into according to what you're saying, is that right? Exactly. Zimmerman put himself in that situation and at least instigated the confrontation that ultimately led to the fight. And that's why he should be charged. But that doesn't excuse or warrant Treyvon escalating it to a physical fight, if that's what happened. So what if somebody is following you? So what if they're suspicious of you? If I'm Treyvon, and I think this guy is just some nosy wannabe hero who looks at me as another black kid up to no good, I just go on my way and prove him wrong. Even if he confronts me, I keep my cool, beat him at his home game, and don't basically act like the thug he's assuming me to be.
Mods should mind their own business and leave poster's profile signatures alone.
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Re: Crime & Justice
[Re: IvyLeague]
#643479
04/11/12 10:04 PM
04/11/12 10:04 PM
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 25,984 California
The Italian Stallionette
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 25,984
California
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You're assuming that Trayvon confronted Zimmerman. I don't see it playing out that way. Granted all the facts are not out and we don't know everything. If we were on the jury we couldn't speculate but here we can. As I understand it Trayvon was talking to a girlfriend on his cellphone just minutes before he was attacked. According to the girl (who I am sure police have/will talk to)Trayvon told her that someone was following him. She said she told him to run and he told her that he would just walk fast. She said she heard what sounded like a struggle and the cell phone dropping and the call was lost. Another tidbit that will likely come to surface. They had the funeral home person who cared for the body. He said he saw NO signs/marks of a struggle on Trayvon's body. I am sure a medical examiner would be the person to make that judgement and we'll see if that is the case. Also, they do have the voice recording of someone screaming. I do know that two voice experts determined the screaming was NOT Zimmerman but they have no recording of Trayvon's to see if the screamer was him. I'm thinking in this day and age, there likely may be some recording somewhere either from school,phone, computer or whatever and voice experts can make that determination. Zimmerman had the gun, Trayvon had the skittles & ice tea. TIS
"Mankind must put an end to war before war puts an end to mankind. War will exist until that distant day when the conscientious objector enjoys the same reputation and prestige that the warrior does today." JFK
"War is over, if you want it" - John Lennon
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Re: Crime & Justice
[Re: Sicilian Babe]
#643480
04/11/12 10:05 PM
04/11/12 10:05 PM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
IvyLeague
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
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Trayvon Martin did nothing wrong. He was walking home from the store. He was walking on a public street. He wasn't bothering anyone. He wasn't talking loudly, playing music. He wasn't doing anything suspicious, unless you consider being black in a mostly white neighborhood questionable behavior.
Words can quickly escalate into the physical. Instead of simple fists, it became a shooting that resulted in the death of a young boy. Do you know that? Do you know, for a fact, that after Zimmerman confronted him, Treyvon didn't attack him? If he did, that would be wrong, would it not?
Mods should mind their own business and leave poster's profile signatures alone.
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Re: Crime & Justice
[Re: The Italian Stallionette]
#643483
04/11/12 10:09 PM
04/11/12 10:09 PM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
IvyLeague
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
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You're assuming that Trayvon confronted Zimmerman. I don't see it playing out that way. Granted all the facts are not out and we don't know everything. If we were on the jury we couldn't speculate but here we can. As I understand it Trayvon was talking to a girlfriend on his cellphone just minutes before he was attacked. According to the girl (who I am sure police have/will talk to)Trayvon told her that someone was following him. She said she told him to run and he told her that he would just walk fast. She said she heard what sounded like a struggle and the cell phone dropping and the call was lost. Another tidbit that will likely come to surface. They had the funeral home person who cared for the body. He said he saw NO signs/marks of a struggle on Trayvon's body. I am sure a medical examiner would be the person to make that judgement and we'll see if that is the case. Also, they do have the voice recording of someone screaming. I do know that two voice experts determined the screaming was NOT Zimmerman but they have no recording of Trayvon's to see if the screamer was him. I'm thinking in this day and age, there likely may be some recording somewhere either from school,phone, computer or whatever and voice experts can make that determination. Zimmerman had the gun, Trayvon had the skittles & ice tea. TIS Holy heck. Am I speaking in tongues here? Is this a woman thing? Yes, all I can do at this point is make assumptions based on what little details have come out. And based on those so far, I assume that it was Zimmerman who confronted Treyvon initially. And I assume it was Treyvon who raised it from the level of a face to face verbal encounter to a physical altercation by attacking Zimmerman. Some of you need to take a step back and look at this more objectively. Approaching this like one side was as pure as the driven snow, while demonizing the other, is BS.
Mods should mind their own business and leave poster's profile signatures alone.
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Re: Crime & Justice
[Re: The Italian Stallionette]
#643491
04/11/12 10:20 PM
04/11/12 10:20 PM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
IvyLeague
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
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A woman thing????? Some need to practice what they preach. TIS Not sure what you mean. But my comment came from the fact that I'm having to state, as well as restate, my thinking to three different female posters. My point was that he didn't do anything worthy of a confrontation in the first place, Up to that point, we agree. But it seems like some may be arguing that since Zimmerman did overstep his bounds as community watch, and did confront him, that somehow would theoretically warrant Treyvon reacting violently. Talking back, mouth off, arguing, etc. would all be understandable. But after Zimmerman crossed a line by confronting him in the first place, Treyvon may have crossed another line himself by turning it from a verbal encounter into a physical one.
Mods should mind their own business and leave poster's profile signatures alone.
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Re: Crime & Justice
[Re: Sicilian Babe]
#643493
04/11/12 10:24 PM
04/11/12 10:24 PM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
IvyLeague
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
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Holy heck. Am I speaking in tongues here? Is this a woman thing?
Oh, my goodness, that must be it! It's our breasts that make what you're saying incomprehensible! Not the fact that what you're saying is utter and complete crap! What have I said that is crap? It seems you don't like what I'm saying because I haven't nominated Treyvon for sainthood and convicted Zimmerman for 1st degree murder.
Mods should mind their own business and leave poster's profile signatures alone.
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