after studying the whole Neri/Rocco situation, i think Rocco was the triggerman on the Tahoe assasins, Michael mentioned "if what I think is happening, has aready happened theyre dead already', which was very vauge and he did not elaborate at all about what he "thinks" happened. and subsequent actions toward him (Fredo)(many go unnoticed), then eventually sending him on a suicide mission to kill Roth,some of the reasons that lead me to think Rocco was involved to some degree.....Any thoughts? please post em'!

CORRECTION! after studying the whole Neri/Rocco situation, i think Rocco was the triggerman on the Tahoe assasins, Michael mentioned "if what I think is happening, has aready happened theyre dead already', which was very vauge and he did not elaborate at all about what he "thinks" happened. and subsequent actions toward him *(Rocco)*(many go unnoticed), then eventually sending him on a suicide mission to kill Roth,some of the reasons that lead me to think Rocco was involved to some degree.....Any thoughts? please post em'!

This and other things indeed suggests Rocco was also in on it. I sill believe Michael sent Rocco to kill Roth as the ultimate revenge and for Rocco to show his loyalty and redeem himself.

There are several other threads on this very topic, but I'll quickly weigh in, anyway.

If Michael thought Rocco was guilty of that kind of treachery, he wouldn't need to send him on a "suicide" mission. He just would have killed him. Period. Neri would have been more than happy to oblige.

As far as "redeeming" himself? There's no redeeming yourself when you betray your Don. If Rocco was guilty (and I've never seen any direct eveidence that he was), he'd be dead. End of story.

Period? End of story? I don't think so.

It's 'my oppinion' that Michael suspected Rocco's involvement and therefore tested his loyalty by sending him on that ridiculous mission.

You don't sent someone who's indentified as you're "caporegime" on a suicide mission in front of the public if you don't have a good reason for it.

So if Rocco were guilty, but he were successful in killing Roth and surviving himself, you think Michael would have let him live because he passed the "loyalty" test?

One of the things that we tend to forget about movies is production values, limits, and costs. Rocco became at some point in the movie a prominent and recognizable character who was meant to be so recognized by viewers as such. In that capacity he was sent to murder Roth. I don't think it had anything to do with any imagined treachery by him. There's no basis for that at all in the movie.

And PB's right. You just murder a traitor. Why take the chance that he's going to turn on you with a gun or testimony or alternative allegiance?

Agree 100%.

aka Fredo Corleone. Minus the gun.

Suspected is something else than being guilty...

I've always thought Rocco was acting a little suspicious straight after the failed murder attempt on Michael at Lake Tahoe. He gave the impression that he really wanted to kill the assassins, instead of capturing and questioning them, and that's exactly what happened.

My theory is that Rocco could have been aware of what was going on and that he may have even been involved to some degree. I think he was an opportunist. He may have also been approached by Johnny Ola (probably even behind Fredo's back) and would have been promised Michael's organization in Nevada if he wouldn't interfere. Maybe it were even Rocco's own men who had opened the drapes.

I think he was the type of guy who would wait and see what happens and support the winners, no matter what the outcome would be.

And when it turned out that the assassination had failed, Rocco, feeling jeopardized, had to react quickly by killing the assassins before they could fall into the wrongs hands and reveal his involvement.

Michael, suspicious and calculating as always, probably considered such a scenario.

Rocco would be an obvious choice to be involved in the plot, far more obvious than Fredo. He was the one in charge of security at Lake Tahoe. If I were Hyman Roth, I would definitely consider him to be part of the plot. His role would be crucial for the plot to succeed. He would have been far more important than Fredo.

I'm not saying I'm totally convinced that this is the case. It's just a theory I have. And frankly, it's not that unplausible.

You hit the nail on the head. But this ofcourse then also applies to all the other conspiracy theories on this board...

Not implausible at all. As Michael said, nobody other than Tom was above suspicion.

However...having seen and taken part in what happened to Paulie as a result of selling out HIS Don, one would think that Rocco of all people would be a bit smarter than to take such a risk.

Not entirely implausible. But also a major stretch, even by the standards of this board. I don't see any evidence in the film to support this, especially since Fredo is later revealed to be Roth's inside man.

Furthermore, Michael seemed to view killing Roth as a matter of great importance. I don't see why he would send someone who he considered a possible traitor on a high-priority suicide mission. That kind of assignment would seem to be best carried out by your most trusted operative, not your least trusted.

Yes, we've speculated many times about Rocco being somehow implicated in the Tahoe shooting, and his volunteering to take the suicide mission against Roth as expiation for his guilt. But I don't agree. Rocco looked genuinely startled and upset about the Tahoe shooting, and begged Michael to stay inside. I think Michael sensed Rocco's outrage over the shooting, which may be why he admonished him, in an emphatic way, "Rocco--ALIVE!."

I think Michael selected Rocco for the suicide mission because he believed Rocco was expendible at that point. And anyway, Rocco was Clemenza's choice, Neri was his. And, a subtheme in II is how Neri pushed his way past Rocco, and was trying to push his way past Tom, to become Michael's #2. Rocco may have volunteered for that mission in a last-ditch attempt to regain Michael's favor.

Fair enough. But like I said, it's just a theory. Olivant is probably right about what he said, although the ironic part is that his statement also applies for most of the other conspiracy theories on this board. That way, there's no reason to discuss anything anymore and you could then as well close this board.

A little imagination does no harm at all, I think we can all agree about that.

However, I still believe Michael suspected Rocco anyhow.



If Michael fully trusted him, then a man like Rocco would never be expendable. I strongly disagree with this.

He was a highly respected member of the organization and was in charge of Michael's Nevada faction. In real life, it would be a ridiculous decision for a mafia boss to consider such an important lieutenant "expendable".

And I've never experienced any subtheme about Neri and Rocco, but then again, I've 'only' seen this movie about ten times..

At Anthony's party, Rocco is seen scanning the crowd, like the rent-a-cop he's become. Neri's nowhere to be seen.

In the boathouse, Neri introduces himself to Johnny Ola, like the full partner he's become. Michael dispatches Rocco to feed Ola's men, like the waiter he's become.

During dinner, Michael dispatches Rocco to put Deanna to bed, like the bouncer he's become. Later, Rocco heads up the posse trying to find the Tahoe shooters. Where's Neri? On a mission [deleted scene] to oust Klingman from his hotel, where he also orders the showgirls to "keep it going." No doubt his proprietary air is because Michael gave him a piece of that hotel.

In the penultimate boathouse scene, while Rocco stands, tense, like a bodyguard, Neri reclines in his chair and is a full partner in the discussion about Roth and his whereabouts. Rocco says nothing. When Michael tells Tom he can take his family "and your mistress" to Vegas, Neri smirks--you know he was the source of that info. And, when Michael chides Tom, "If history has taught us anything, it's that you can kill anyone," he finishes by turning to Rocco and says, "Rocco?" Notice he doesn't say, "Al?" That's because he needs Neri, not Rocco.

To be fair: there's a serious weakness in airport murder scene. Unless Rocco got away clean (a near-impossibility, IMO), the cops would have linked him to Michael sooner rather than later. Rocco appeared in the FBI chart at the Senate hearing as a caporegime. How would Michael--so recently accused of being a top organized crime figure--have explained that?

Interesting, and you might be right. The next time I'm going to watch GF2 I will pay extra attention to this.



I agree, and I've also used this as an argument. But it's still a great scene though.

An interesting detail is that Roth says that he came home to vote in the presidential election which indicates it was 1960.

The extra's on the blu-ray also confirm this.

Perhaps he wouldn't have to explain it at all. "What do I know about the private activities of my waiter?"

"Little Man - Meyer Lansky and the Gangster Life," the outstandingn biography by Robert Lacey, has a photo of Lansky's arrest at Miami International Airport that, as you might expect, FFC reproduced perfectly in II.

exactly my thoughts Sonny Black, and then some....

Gee Turnbull, You know, as much as I respect you and your postings I just can't keep letting you make up your own calls on some of these things.

"At Anthony's party, Rocco is seen scanning the crowd, like the rent-a-cop he's become. Neri's nowhere to be seen."

Rent-a-cop,? come on, you know that Rocco is in charge of Security while Neri has taken Tom place as Michaels right hand because Michael wanted Tom out of the way so he could fall back on him. Just like Tom exits because he isn't involved in that side of the business. So Rocco was doing his job in checking out the crowd and making sure things were in place. But surely no rent-a cop.

Neri a full partner? He may have moved up to Toms old place next to Michael side or being Michael's main man in the meeting, but full partner overstates the issue.

Calling Rocco a waiter because he is taking care of Johnny men is another slap uncalled for. Who else should make sure that these men don't travel in the wrong places, but are respected the right way.

So Rocco is more of the muscle then Nerri, so he has to handle Fredo's wife. So you put him down as a bouncer? But at the time of the shooting he is right there to protect Michael and you slap him down as just heading up the posse?

Then you say that Nerri trip to the hotel makes you fell like Michael gave him a piece of that hotel? Did I miss some things?
So both men have their place in the system, but you seem to really want to put down Rocco.
What is with the cut downs?

I don't know what is so hard to figure out about the roles of Neri and Rocco. Initaially, Neri was selected by Michael to be at Michael's command to carry out special orders. The novel makes it clear that he was also a body guard, trying to stay physically close to Michael to protect him. It's quite clear to me that Neri's role evolved. As I posted elsewhere, call Neri an underboss, a consigliere, or just a capo. By any name he was the person that Michael trusted most. Rocco was not a rent a cop. Why would you state that? He was a capo and carried out Capo functions. That was the Corleone hierarchy during Michael's tenure. There's nothing mysterious or conspiratorial about it.

agree....

I've always thought Rocco was involved in the hit. I think Michael says 'Rocco ALIVE' because he feels Rocco will kill them when he finds them...as he does. Rocco told the boys where to hide out, sent everybody elsewhere while he strolled over and shot the pair of them

If he didnt do it who did? Neri was out sorting Klingman, Fredo? Fuggghetaboutit.

Also, in the Trilogy version, look out fo a moment of Rocco telling some guys off...the shooters maybe?

i had the chance to see gII this past week on the big screen in the pittsburgh area. Its surprising that as many time i've seen this thing on dvd, each one individually and the saga what is missed. In the Tahoe scene, when the 2 shooters are found in the drainage ditch, you can see the shooter on the right has been garroted - you can see a clearly defined slit line across his throat. Its still very hard to see anything on the shooter on the left, he may have met the same fate. If this the case what 2 or more individuals were in on this?????

As Michael said:"...killed by someone very close to us."

Fredo killed the men at the compound, if Micheal had any thoughts in this head that it was Rocco he would be dead. Reasons being Rocco is not Fredo, meaning Rocco is very dangerous, there is no way Mike lets Rocco runs around a do whatever he wants cause Rocco could kill Mike, and he also is not Mike brother.

At the Senate proceedings there is a family chart, Fredo is underboss, Tom is consig, and Rocco/Neri are both capos.

I have never bought into the theory that Rocco was involved in the ht on Michael in any way. I see no evidence whatsoever of this in the film, but merely speculation on these boards.

The truth is Rocco was passed over by Neri, plain and simple, and because he was expendable to Michael, and because Rocco was eager to please Michael he volunteered to kill Roth.

If anyone killed them it had to be Fredo who was in on it as I have posted elsewhere. Remember that Deanna was shrieking that something happened right utside "her" window.

Some here have speculated that Rocco volunteered for the one-way mission as expiation for his having participated in the Tahoe shooting by killing the shooters. I don't buy it. I think it's what dt said: he was passed over in favor of Neri, and wanted to make a heroic gesture that, if he survived, might put him back on top in Michael's estimation.