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Re: Outfit Made Men
[Re: IvyLeague]
#716738
05/21/13 11:46 AM
05/21/13 11:46 AM
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 902
ChiTown
WestTown
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WestTown
Underboss
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 902
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Ivy, Shut the Fuck up and don't ever talk to me about Chicago again. Understand. So no response to any of the info I posted above, huh? Didn't think so. Just ignore this guy Elmwood. His posts influence no one.
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Re: Outfit Made Men
[Re: jonnynonos]
#716793
05/21/13 02:50 PM
05/21/13 02:50 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,841 OC, CA
Faithful1
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,841
OC, CA
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Joe Fosco once said something interesting about the "making" ceremony in Chicago: That it was basically just a ruse to pay people less money. You don't want to pay them more money, so you give them a basically dumb title.
I have no way of knowing that if that is true, but it makes a heck of a lot of sense. It is *exactly* what they do in corporate America, and if there is one organization in the world that is even more cynical than corporate America, it's the mob.
I always found it rather hilarious and telling that Marcello was giving Nick Calabrese's family a paltry $4,000 a month to try to keep Nick quiet. $40K a year to not flip and basically sink everyone. If he'd have moved the decimal over, who knows if Family Secrets would have even happened.
As for the heirarchy, I have a feeling it is less formal than a lot of people think. But who knows. That was Fosco's opinion. Personally I don't think that's the motive. I can confirm that some sources say that during Al Capone's day people were asked to put their hand on a Bible and take an oath. Turns out the Bible belonged to Jim Colosimo and was passed on to Mike "the Greek" Potson and Capone never had it. When the FBI was investigating in the 1960s they found that Chicago did not have any initiation ceremony. When the ceremony was used it was during the period when Aiuppa was in charge. Why did Aiuppa start using the traditional ceremony? Possibly with the encouragement of the other Families, but that's just my guess. It had nothing to do with some sort of Sicilian revival since Accardo and Giancana were both born to Sicilian parents.
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Re: Outfit Made Men
[Re: danielperrygin]
#716917
05/22/13 02:12 PM
05/22/13 02:12 PM
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 653 Illinois
F_white
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 653
Illinois
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Do anyone have a full list of the 20-30 made guys and the outfit?
From now on, nothing goes down unless I'm involved. No blackjack no dope deals, no nothing. A nickel bag gets sold in the park, I want in. You guys got fat while everybody starved on the street. Now it's my turn.
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Re: Outfit Made Men
[Re: Snakes]
#716947
05/22/13 04:16 PM
05/22/13 04:16 PM
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 653 Illinois
F_white
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 653
Illinois
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Thank for list some name i know
From now on, nothing goes down unless I'm involved. No blackjack no dope deals, no nothing. A nickel bag gets sold in the park, I want in. You guys got fat while everybody starved on the street. Now it's my turn.
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Re: Outfit Made Men
[Re: elmwoodparker]
#717009
05/23/13 05:17 AM
05/23/13 05:17 AM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
IvyLeague
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
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The Chicago Crime Commission Report said in 1997 there were 70 made guys in the Outfit and 700 to 1,200 Associates. If the Outfit downsized 10 years 50% or more, then the Associates would still number AT LEAST 300 TO 500. How could the Made guys go down 50 to 60% and the associates go down 90%???? How is that possible??? if you want to quote Feds reports, then you can quote the one in 2007 and I'll quote the one in 1997 reducing everything at least 50%. No problem. The 70 members was an estimate by the CCC. Not an exact count like the more recent FBI figures. And, if you subtract the Outfit members who have died since 1997, it matches up with the 28-30 members the FBI cited in 2007. As for associates, that's obviously going to be a much more flexible figure, as definitions of what makes an associate are going to differ. Considering the modern day Outfit's size in terms of core members, a little over 100 associates is much easier to believe than 700-1,200. The Spizziri Brothers are not made. They are soldiers who used to make collections with my Uncle who is older than them in the Elmwood Park Crew. I've seen this list before but didn't pay much attention to it. If this is the big Feds list of 28 made guys, it is very imcomplete and a little inaccurate in a few instances. A lot of names are missing. Cautadello (Cicero), Dote (Elmwood Park), Spina, Mike Sarno and Rudy Fratto (I know they are in jail, but this list was done before they went to jail), and a lot of new men that were made in the last 5 years, plus several other men who are specialists that the Feds either don't know about or they think are Associates instead of made men. All the Specialists that are made participated in a murder years ago. I will not name them. The list isn't from the feds. It was a list posted by a poster over on the RD forum. The guy was well researched on the Outfit and those names were the ones he had seen specifically listed as made members here or there.
Mods should mind their own business and leave poster's profile signatures alone.
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Re: Outfit Made Men
[Re: elmwoodparker]
#717045
05/23/13 10:12 AM
05/23/13 10:12 AM
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 902
ChiTown
WestTown
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WestTown
Underboss
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 902
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The Spizziri Brothers are not made. They are soldiers who used to make collections with my Uncle who is older than them in the Elmwood Park Crew. I've seen this list before but didn't pay much attention to it. If this is the big Feds list of 28 made guys, it is very imcomplete and a little inaccurate in a few instances. A lot of names are missing. Cautadello (Cicero), Dote (Elmwood Park), Spina, Mike Sarno and Rudy Fratto (I know they are in jail, but this list was done before they went to jail), and a lot of new men that were made in the last 5 years, plus several other men who are specialists that the Feds either don't know about or they think are Associates instead of made men. All the Specialists that are made participated in a murder years ago. I will not name them. Elmwood--Did your uncle also have Big Sean doing collections along with the Spizziri brothers? Are the Spizziri brothers still active?
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Re: Outfit Made Men
[Re: ChiTown]
#717105
05/23/13 04:03 PM
05/23/13 04:03 PM
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,156
jonnynonos
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,156
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The Spizziri Brothers are not made. They are soldiers who used to make collections with my Uncle who is older than them in the Elmwood Park Crew. I've seen this list before but didn't pay much attention to it. If this is the big Feds list of 28 made guys, it is very imcomplete and a little inaccurate in a few instances. A lot of names are missing. Cautadello (Cicero), Dote (Elmwood Park), Spina, Mike Sarno and Rudy Fratto (I know they are in jail, but this list was done before they went to jail), and a lot of new men that were made in the last 5 years, plus several other men who are specialists that the Feds either don't know about or they think are Associates instead of made men. All the Specialists that are made participated in a murder years ago. I will not name them. Elmwood--Did your uncle also have Big Sean doing collections along with the Spizziri brothers? Are the Spizziri brothers still active? I remember reading about this Sean character on ANP. Apparently he was a huge gorilla of a man; I think someone described him as an "ogre." I tried to find a picture of him or what happened to him but never got very far.
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Re: Outfit Made Men
[Re: IvyLeague]
#721555
06/21/13 08:11 AM
06/21/13 08:11 AM
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Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 699 Illinois
Chicago
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 699
Illinois
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Ivy, very well stated. The term Associate was used to mean many things. It was used to describe mainly 4 different kinds of Outfit connected men: 1) It was used to describe a full time man who worked under a made man in his sub crew. 2) It was used to describe high level Non Italian members. 3) it was used to describe Politicians or Judges who were controlled by the Outfit. 4) It was used to describe bookmakers or tavern owners who partnered with the Outfit either by choice or by force. I would describe it in these 4 ways: Note* I'm talking about the OLD POWERFUL OUFIT, not the current Outfit .
1) Guys who belonged to a crew and worked full time under a made man were called MEMBER/ASSOCIATES. (sometimes they were refered to as soldiers, but not always).
2) Men who were high level non Italian members were generally called HIGH LEVEL/ ASSOCIATES.
3) Politicians under the control of the Outfit were generally called CONNECTED/ASSOCIATES.
4) Men who were partnered with the Outfit on the street level as bookmakers or tavern owners were referred to as STREET/ASSOCIATES.
I agree with Ivy, that for reasons of semantics and simplicity, it is better to refer to all non made men in the Outfit as Associates. Then, you have to add a word in front of Associates to describe WHAT KIND OF ASSOCIATE YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. Chicago, in the old days, always had a very large number of Associates. The actual number of made men was purposely kept on the lower side for 2 reasons. 1) Maximize the profit structure so each made man earned a lot of money. 2) Maximize the Security
The MEMBER/ASSOCIATES who belonged to the crew were the ones in line to move up and get made at some point. Their power began and ended under the man they worked for. They naturally interacted with the Boss of the Crew sometimes and it would be the Crew Boss who would ask the Top Bosses if his man could be promoted because he was loyal and would be a good earner/supervisor. The Top Boss of the Outfit always made the final call because this new man would not only be a partner with his Capo, but also with him. Occasionally if a guy started to undermine the made guy he worked for in hopes of moving up a little sooner, that was either the beginning of a death sentence or he would be blackballed and never move up like Elmwood's big mouth Uncle.
Last edited by Chicago; 06/21/13 08:56 AM.
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