Last night, after the Super Bowl, I was flicking through the channels and lo and behold, GFI was on. Of course I said to myself that I would just watch "this one part'" but wound up watching the rest of the movie. My 2 part question is "When do you think Tessio started to consider going over to Barzini and did Tessio approach Barzini, or Barzini approach Tessio? When they all have the meet with Mike and Vito, Tessio and Clemenza are complianing about the way things are going, Vito tells them to be a friend to Michael. Clemenza shows respect and aknowledges Mike, But it looked to me as if Tessio could not be bothered anymore. Then when we jump to Vito's funeral, Tessio goes over to Barzini and basically shows him the utmost respect as if Barzini was the new power. Obviously Tessio did not decide to jump over to Barzini right there and then, it was in the works for a while. Do you think that right after the meeting with Vito and Mike, Tessio went to Barzini and made a deal? Or did Barzini approach Tessio? C'mon new members, give us your thoughts.


Don Cardi

I think Barzini approached Tessio and Tessio "went over" when the Don(his Don)retired and left Michael in charge. Mike wasnt fighting back against Barzini's muscle, to prevent a war before he had all his plans completed,and to Tessio, and everyone else, that was a sign of weakness.Barzini probably wanted to find out if Vito really was retired and not just working with Mike as his cover before Barzini attacked the Corleones.Tessio was probably promised control of the Corleones when Mike, Clemenza and others loyal to Vito were out of the way.

My guess is that Tessio approached Barzini. He [Tessio] felt that Mike wasn't the man Vito was, and couldn't hold off the Barzini-Tattaglia alliance, so he made what he felt was a smart move and agreed to go with Barzini, figuring that Barzini would win out in the end.

It's a shame he did, though. I liked Tessio.

MICHAEL:
It's a smart move -- Tessio was always smarter....

Well Michael was wrong about it being a smart move. Tessio ended up dead.

I think Tessio approached Barzini. When? There's a significant moment in the "fishtank" scene, when Michael is telling Clemenza and Tessio to be patient. Note that Tessio is the irate one, complaining about Barzini opening up in his territory. Finally Vito intervenes: he says, "Do you trust my judgment?" "Always, Godfather," replies the loyal Clemenza, with feeling. Tessio barely spits out, "Yes." That, to me, was an indication that he was going over.

I realize you're joking...but Tessio ended up dead only because of Vito's skillful grooming of Michael to take over the reigns.

Had it not been for his father's warning of assasination and that "Whoever comes to you with this meeting - that's the traitor."...Michael might've walked right into the ambush planned by Tessio & Barzini.

Had Tessio remained loyal to Michael, he may have remained alive ... but advancement with Barzini was worth taking the chance. It was strictly business, and it WAS the smart move.

Apple

I always love when Clemenza says, "I hate that goddam Barzini."

I would guess that Tessio approached Barzini, but I would imagine there would have been a lot of politicing as they felt each other out. Barzini would be skeptical that it wasn't a setup ala Luca's ill-fated attempt to join the Tattaglia's. Another side plot for the next movie!

If I was Tessio, I wouldn't want to be controlled by a much younger man than my own age. I would think I'm smart enough to run my own family now and Michael Corleone is still only a college kid, he doesn't have the sicilian balls or cunning to run the family right. Tessio was greedy as he probably wnated his own family now and didn't want to answer to Mike's command, also he thought Barzini would be able to take over the corleone empire when Vito dies.

Definitely at the meeting with Mike, Clemenza, Vito, etc. is when Tessio realized that it was over. He obviously disagreed with the strategy put forth by Vito & Mike:

TESSIO'S VOICE (OS)
I'm not asking you for help, Mike -- just take off the handcuffs.

MICHAEL'S VOICE (OS)
Be patient.

CLEMENZA'S VOICE (OS)
We got to protect ourselves -- Give me a chance to recruit some new men.

MICHAEL'S VOICE (OS)
No -- I don't want to give Barzini an excuse to start fighting.

TESSIO'S VOICE (OS)
Mike, you're wrong...



One question I have was whether Clemenza & Tessio knew that Vito & Mike were setting up Carlo. If Tessio & Clemenza did not know, then Mike's appointment of Carlo as Michael's "right hand man in Vegas" was probably another confirmation to Tessio that Mike would run the Corleone Family into the ground.

Fair question, Goombah. Michael was setting loyalty tests all around prior to The Great Massacre of 1955, and anointing Carlo as his "right hand man" in Nevada certainly seemed like a test. Then again, neither Tessio nor Clemenza was slated to make the move to Nevada (Clemenza: "You always said we could form our own families..."), so Carlo's anoitment didn't impact them directly.
To get to the point (and I'm certain you wish I would): I think Mike kept the entire massacre, including the Carlo hit, secret from Tessio. Given Michael's passion for controlling everything, he probably didn't tell Clemenza to whack Carlo until the last possible moment--not because he didn't trust Clemenza, but because it wasn't necessary to tell him sooner. All he had to do was tell Clemenza, "Take Carlo for a one-way ride."
BTW: I don't think Vito suggested or actively participated in the plan to kill Carlo. I think Michael, as the heir, knew what he had to do to avenge Sonny, and Vito went along with it.

So stupid of all of them to betray the family.
To me, thats rule number uno.

Quote

Originally posted by Turnbull:
BTW: I don't think Vito suggested or actively participated in the plan to kill Carlo. I think Michael, as the heir, knew what he had to do to avenge Sonny, and Vito went along with it.

I'm curious about your thoughts on why you believe Vito wasn't in on the Carlo hit, Turnbull. I respectfully disagree. I always assumed that Vito had to be holding back from having Carlo killed. We learn in Part II of Vito's patience at hunting down his parents' killers. Certainly, Vito was very smart and had to know that Carlo was responsible for Sonny's death. I would tend to believe that Vito didn't want to kill his daughter's husband, but knew it must be done. I'm sure his guilt at having Carlo killed was holding Vito back. But what if Michael never came back from Sicily or refused to go into the Family Business? I would tend to believe that Vito would have ultimately had Carlo killed had Michael not relieved Vito of that burden. As it turned out, it was more convenient for Vito allow Michael to carry through with killing Carlo. I would hope that, at some point, Vito pulled Michael aside and gave him advice on the best way to kill Carlo. Deep down, the Don had to love his son Santino, despite Santino's shortcomings. Vito's love would require avenging his son's murder.

Or what if Michael had announced plans to his father to spare Carlo? I feel that Vito would have said that Carlo must die to avenge Santino.

It's interesting to consider all of these "what if's," but that is what makes this Trilogy so fascinating IMHO.

I think most or all of this is summed up in that very short conversation between Vito and Michael upon his return from Italy.

M: Pop, what about Sonny? What about Sicily?

V: I swore that I would never break the peace

M: But won't they take that as a sign of weakness?

V: It is a sign of weakness...

M: Well, you gave your word that you wouldn't break the peace, I didn't give mine. You don't
have to have any part. I take all responsibility.

V: Well, we have a lot of time to talk about it now.

Yes, I think Vito knew as well as Michael that Carlo was somehow behind Sonny's death. But he also knew that when the time came Michael would do what had to be done. In that way, I agree that Vito had no involvement in the planning of Carlo's murder (and all the other 'breaking of the peace', which he knew would not take place until after his own death.

Apple

Apple

I agree. I didn't articulate it correctly in my previous post. Vito simply washed his hands of being directly involved in killing Carlo by turning it over to Michael. Vito made the promise to the other Dons about not taking vengence because Vito knew that Michael would exact revenge on his behalf.

Nor did I articulate it exactly, Goombah. When I said that Vito didn't suggest or actively participate in Carlo's murder, I didn't mean to imply that he didn't want it. I think he did, but he couldn't bring himself to kill Connie's husband and the father of her children, so he left it to Michael. I'm sure he knew Michael's plans.

Tessio approaced Barzini in my thought. at the funeral it was suspisious for tessio to respect Barzini so much without ulterior reasoning.mike could have been tipped off by this without Vitos warning eh