Well, it's a guessing game. I doubt too many people would really have inside knowledge on that.

By some accounts Butch Petrocelli was killed for ripping off the Aleman defense fund, and I believe Petrocelli is believed to have been made, right?

If true, would they kill a made guy for ripping off an unmade guy?

Although I remember when I read that that was the sole reason for killing Petrocelli I was a little skeptical.

But I don't know.

Raione was GOING to flip until they blew his mom's porch up, then he got alzheimer's.

Was this the time when Raione was dispatched to some house to allow a couple of hit men to kill Hal Smith? Upon arrival, Raione determined he was the victim and "got out of Dodge." Wasn't one of hit men an informer? And was Gus Alex behind this double cross or was it someone else.

I know I've read this several times, but I can't remember the details and names.

Yes, you're referring to another chart that Scott (mcscott) posted. He did that one before the blue chart and it was simply a list of names, i.e. without the pictures. He claimed the same sources for both charts (feds, CCC) but the membership was inflated in both.

Here's a couple different sources, both from FBI guys in Chicago. One cited 28 members, the other about 30 members. Time to face reality, pal.

We have 28 made members of the Chicago Outfit roaming in the Chicagoland area. We have over 100 associates of the Chicago Outfit," Grant said.
http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id=5681103

Mallul estimates the Outfit has about 30 "made" members and a little more than 100 associates
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2007-09-30/news/0709300075_1_chicago-outfit-mob-boss-calabrese

I currently have two requests extended to former FBI agents in Chicago for telephone interviews, but I'm not optimistic. These guys do not like to talk on the phone.

and you know whose numbers are inflated because???????

nick calabrese gave the names of 60 made guys

but i guess his numbers are inflated too

and you know whose numbers are inflated because???????

nick calabrese gave the names of 60 made guys

but i guess his numbers are inflated too

Quick question. Is there a Eastside Chicago? And back when the Outfit had 7 crews, did they had the same structure as currently?

Look, genius, I posted the figures straight from the FBI above. 28 and 30. They're right there for all to see. What more do you need?

And there was only a snippet in a Sun Times article where the journalist said Calabrese identified 60 members. Journalists often use the word "members" generically and fail to differentiate between who's actually made and who isn't. To make it even more confusing, as we saw in the Family Secrets indictment itself, guys can be a "member" of a certain crew but not be a "made member" of the Outfit.

The actual number of made guys, according to the FBI, seems to be 30 at most. At least as of 2007. That makes Scott's 50-80 figure inflated. And that's not surprising considering he's also inflated the figures for Detroit. Back in 1996, the total membership for Detroit was 30 at most. But over the past several years, his charts on the RD forum have ranged anywhere from 30 to almost 60 members. And he finally admitted, at one point, that he doesn't differentiate between members and associates on his charts. So him doing the same with Chicago isn't hard to imagine.

The bottom line is, you have an agenda and you'll go with whatever number is the biggest. If somebody else came along and claimed the Outfit had 100 members, you'd drop the 50-80 members immediately and go with the bigger figure.

first you claim no chart was ever posted stating the syndicate has 50-80 made men active, inactive or in jail. now you're admitting that there was a chart but those numbers were inflated.

now you're claiming that nick calabrese gave the names of 60 made men but they didn't differentiate if they were made or just members. common sense will tell you that the government asked him to name as many made guys as he could in open court. not too mention steve warmbir specifically said calabrese named 60 made men. so either you can't read or you're a liar, and we know you can read

No, I said no chart showing 50-80 members from the FBI was posted on the forum.



We really don't need to know what Calabrese meant, i.e. living, dead, etc. or whether the journalist got it right. We have statements from two different FBI officials telling us the membership. You're just grasping for any reason to ignore those numbers because you think they're too low and that just kills you and your image of the Outfit. Sorry pal, that's reality. Save yourself a lot of time and go sell your BS somewhere else. Because nobody is buying it here.

so what calabrese said in court doesn't matter?

i'm sure he knows who most of the made guys are but you don't believe him

He didn't say it on the witness stand. It was a point reported by Warbimer as being brought up by prosecutors during sentencing to argue for leniency.

http://blogs.suntimes.com/mob/2009/03/what_the_prosecution_says_abou.html

witness stand or no witness stand

the fbi's federal prosecutors acknowledged calabrese told them 60 made guys

Once again, it apparently wasn't 60 currently living made guys. And that's assuming the journalist was even using the term "member" in the proper sense. Bottom line, the current total is about half that, at least since 2007. Period.

how do you know whether or not the people calabrese named are dead or alive?

Doesn't the phrase "made" and "member" blend in a way in Chicago? That Murry Humphries was a member no? Then there are the "made" guys, I.E. Italians? Way I interpreted was members were "connected" as they say in NYC and "made" is what it is?

my god, you chicago guys really take the cake when it comes to the mob! take a step back, and realize that we are in the present day, not the 60's, 70's, and early part of the 80's where your silly analogies would at least have some clout. the best that can be argued, imo, is that at their peak, the outfit was close to being as influential as the 3 historically weaker ny families, columbo, bonanno, and lucchese, seperately, although a strong case can be made that they were never even equal to these families on an individual basis.

if you guys want to pick a criminal area where you guys are ahead of nyc, the street gang scene would be your best bet! with regards to the # of made guys ect, i'm not sure, but i'm much more comfortable going with the more consistent # presented by the fbi and law enforcement in general, rather than defaulting to the highest # available to somehow try and prove my point. one thing however that i think we can all agree with is that the structure of the outfit is different than other families, thus the # of made guys seems to get under people's skin considering the influence the outfit is seemingly able to wield even at this stage in time. with that said, it might do a little to help some get over the low # if we could somehow come to an agreement on how many guys, whether made or not, have made guy status within the outfit. unfortunatly, that would likely end in the same arguments that we are faced with now.

my god, you chicago guys really take the cake when it comes to the mob! take a step back, and realize that we are in the present day, not the 60's, 70's, and early part of the 80's where your silly analogies would at least have some clout. the best that can be argued, imo, is that at their peak, the outfit was close to being as influential as the 3 historically weaker ny families, columbo, bonanno, and lucchese, seperately, although a strong case can be made that they were never even equal to these families on an individual basis.

if you guys want to pick a criminal area where you guys are ahead of nyc, the street gang scene would be your best bet! with regards to the # of made guys ect, i'm not sure, but i'm much more comfortable going with the more consistent # presented by the fbi and law enforcement in general, rather than defaulting to the highest # available to somehow try and prove my point. one thing however that i think we can all agree with is that the structure of the outfit is different than other families, thus the # of made guys seems to get under people's skin considering the influence the outfit is seemingly able to wield even at this stage in time. with that said, it might do a little to help some get over the low # if we could somehow come to an agreement on how many guys, whether made or not, have made guy status within the outfit. unfortunatly, that would likely end in the same arguments that we are faced with now.