ou mean they were on par with the genovese/gambino families at their peak

no, i mean what a said. the whole argument of " the outfit controlled the entire western united states" is tired and overstated at best. what about the outfits dominant control of las vegas? where is that today? they might have 1 or 2 made guys out there at best, and why is that? the mafia has alot more influence in AC as opposed to vegas.

They didn't make guys during the Capone days. That didn't happen until later... not sure exactly when.

no, i mean what a said. the whole argument of " the outfit controlled the entire western united states" is tired and overstated at best. what about the outfits dominant control of las vegas? where is that today? they might have 1 or 2 made guys out there at best, and why is that? the mafia has alot more influence in AC as opposed to vegas.

Many seem to agree it was sometime in the 1970's.

People often bring up non-Italians who have the same clout in the Outfit as the Italian made guys. But you'll notice the examples they always give are all long dead - Humphries, Guzik, Alex, etc. Today, there are no non-Italians in the hierarchy of the Outfit.

As for guys who haven't gone through the ceremony but have membership status, I doubt there are many. Joey Lombardo is apparently one but he seems to have had membership status before the Outfit started using the ceremony. There may be some other old timers like that left but probably not many.

I'm also not sure the Outfit's structure today is really that much different from the other families. Some internet charts show this really elaborate, hierarchical structure of an administration, area bosses, crew bosses, street bosses, soldiers, and associates but the information coming out about the Outfit in recent years doesn't really support this. Over the past several years the Outfit has had an acting boss (Marcello and Sarno) or something akin to a ruling panel with DiFronzo, Andriacchi and their North Side crew. I suppose these guys could still be called area bosses because of the geographic area their crews operate in. Below that you have the crew bosses, which is simply another word for captain. And below that are the soldiers. Given the much reduced size of the the modern day Outfit, I question why it would need street bosses below the crew bosses.

you're full of shit

if you've heard about sarno then you've heard about szaflarski

http://www.laborers.org/Commission_IBT.html

Salerno Outfit meeting in the above!

Wasn't Alan Dorfman considered a member in Chicago Terms?

I've never heard anyone suggest Dorfman was a member. Just a valuable partner.

As I understand it, when the organization started it did not make people and while being dominantly Italian, particularly in its upper echelons, it brought in many non-Italians as well. In the early days throughout the glory days of the 50s and 60s, non-Italians such as Jake Guzick, Gus Alex and, probably most prominently, Murray Humphreys, rose to its upper echelons.

Sometime later (according to Ivy the 70s) they started making "making" people (though i think certain factors in the organization have always regarded it as silly) and since then I don't think you can really peg any non-Italians as having become actual members of the Outfit. It also seems to have become more Italian-centric in the sense that it is harder to think of non-Itlians who have played a significant role recently like Alex or Humphreys.

Dorman was the head of the Teamsters' pension fund--of course the Outfit was going to partner up with them if they could.

Szaflarski for whatever reason is the video poker king.

But, like I've said, I've never heard anyone suggest either one was a member, and I doubt either one of those guys would have any interest in becoming a member.

But, yes, i was using "made guy" and "member" interchangably in my previous post.

Yes, I think the only guys you could really consider "members" would be made guys.

But I guess that would be up to peoples' opinion, since there's no formal designation.

Most people would definitely say Marco D'Amico is a "member" of the Outfit, though some are of the opinion he was never "made."

If you're asking if the Outfit has like a junior membership program or something, not that I've ever heard of.

you're full of shit

if you've heard about sarno then you've heard about szaflarski

So just for clarification there is no difference between "made" or "member" in Chicago?

Of course I know about Szaflarski. He oversaw a big video poker operation but he wasn't in the Outfit's hierarchy, i.e. he wasn't a crew boss or in the administration.



As said above, whether in Chicago or anywhere else, "made" and "member" are usually synonymous. Especially today. But as I mentioned before, as we saw in the Family Secrets indictment, a guy can be a "member" of a certain crew but not a "made member" of the Outfit, i.e. he hasn't gone through the ceremony. But all that really means is he's an associate who's part of a specific crew.

As I understand it, when the organization started it did not make people and while being dominantly Italian, particularly in its upper echelons, it brought in many non-Italians as well. In the early days throughout the glory days of the 50s and 60s, non-Italians such as Jake Guzick, Gus Alex and, probably most prominently, Murray Humphreys, rose to its upper echelons.

Sometime later (according to Ivy the 70s) they started making "making" people (though i think certain factors in the organization have always regarded it as silly) and since then I don't think you can really peg any non-Italians as having become actual members of the Outfit. It also seems to have become more Italian-centric in the sense that it is harder to think of non-Itlians who have played a significant role recently like Alex or Humphreys.

Dorman was the head of the Teamsters' pension fund--of course the Outfit was going to partner up with them if they could.

Szaflarski for whatever reason is the video poker king.

But, like I've said, I've never heard anyone suggest either one was a member, and I doubt either one of those guys would have any interest in becoming a member.

Of course I know about Szaflarski. He oversaw a big video poker operation but he wasn't in the Outfit's hierarchy, i.e. he wasn't a crew boss or in the administration.



As said above, whether in Chicago or anywhere else, "made" and "member" are usually synonymous. Especially today. But as I mentioned before, as we saw in the Family Secrets indictment, a guy can be a "member" of a certain crew but not a "made member" of the Outfit, i.e. he hasn't gone through the ceremony. But all that really means is he's an associate who's part of a specific crew.