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Did Roth Buy Michael's Story?
#696826
02/15/13 12:07 PM
02/15/13 12:07 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468 With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso
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Consigliere to the Stars
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OP
Consigliere to the Stars

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
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Much has been written about the "danse macabre" that constituted the dialogue between Michael and Roth, and much of it centers on Michael's plan to kill him. What I am wondering is whether or not Roth ever bought Michael's claim that Frank Pentangeli tried to have him assassinated. Obviously Roth knew about Frank and his troubles with the Rosato brothers, and he backed the Rosatos probably because he thought Frankie was weal and/or he could get Michael to go along.
He also had to know that Frank had been loyal to Michael for years, and to Vito before that. Armed with all this information Roth would have also had to know that Frankie did not understand much about "big deals" and that there was no way he could engineer a complex assassination attempt at Lake Tahoe where he went to get Michael's permission to kill the Rosatos. In truth Frankie didn't know what Michael's answer would be, so he would have had to arrange the whole thing the night of the shooting.
So if Roth wasn't buying it, then each man knew before they went to Cuba that the other was going to try to whack him.
"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"
"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."
"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."
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Re: Did Roth Buy Michael's Story?
[Re: GabbyBM]
#701983
03/10/13 06:02 PM
03/10/13 06:02 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,694 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,694
AZ
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Roth knew Pentangeli would be at Anthony's party, and would be contentious about Michael favoring the Rosatos over him. So, according to Roth's reasoning, Pentangeli would have a perfect motivation to try to kill Michael--and would make the perfect patsy for the hit attempt that Roth set up.
So, when Michael called on Roth in Miami and said, "Frank Pentangeli is a dead man," Roth had every reason to believe him. But, when Michael, instead of having Pentangeli whacked, sent him to meet with the Rosatos, Roth knew Michael didn't suspect him--raising the possibility that Michael suspected Roth. So Roth instructed the Rosatos to kill Pentangeli at their meeting. He ordered Pentangeli to be killed in order to remove the Corleones' main ally and muscle in NY--and have his own allies, the Rosatos, take over. At that point, Roth was confident that once Michael landed in Cuba, Roth could use his connections in the Cuban government to squash him.
I believe by the time of their last meeting, both Michael and Roth knew each others' intentions. One of the marvels of that scene is how they held out despite that: Michael to find out who the traitor was, Roth for the $2 million.
Once again: Roth did not engineer Pentangeli's survival to screw Michael. Roth's plan was to lure Michael to Cuba, get the $2 million, and have him killed in a government car on the way home from the Presidential New Year's Eve Party. Why, therefore, would Roth try to engineer an incredibly difficult, incredibly dangerous, split-second-timed rescue of Pentangeli? So that Pentangeli could develop a grudge against Michael and testify against him at a Senate hearing weeks or months after the attempt--by which time, according to Roth's plan, Michael would already be long dead?
And suppose Roth did want to have the cops rescue Pentangeli at the last moment. How would he do it? Call his contact at the police precinct and say, "Hello, Shultz, I want you to send a beat cop to Richie's bar and have him arrive at 3:44 and 25 seconds. Not 3:44 and 15 seconds, not 3:44 and 35 seconds--3:44 and 25 seconds. Got it? Now let's synchronize watches..."
Or, suppose he was lurking outside in a phone booth: "Hello, 56th Police Precinct? Something fishy's going on in Richie's bar. Better send a cop there--but make sure he gets there at 3:44 and 25 seconds."
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Did Roth Buy Michael's Story?
[Re: Turnbull]
#702009
03/10/13 08:00 PM
03/10/13 08:00 PM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
IvyLeague
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
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Roth knew Pentangeli would be at Anthony's party, and would be contentious about Michael favoring the Rosatos over him. So, according to Roth's reasoning, Pentangeli would have a perfect motivation to try to kill Michael--and would make the perfect patsy for the hit attempt that Roth set up.
So, when Michael called on Roth in Miami and said, "Frank Pentangeli is a dead man," Roth had every reason to believe him. But, when Michael, instead of having Pentangeli whacked, sent him to meet with the Rosatos, Roth knew Michael didn't suspect him--raising the possibility that Michael suspected Roth. So Roth instructed the Rosatos to kill Pentangeli at their meeting. He ordered Pentangeli to be killed in order to remove the Corleones' main ally and muscle in NY--and have his own allies, the Rosatos, take over. At that point, Roth was confident that once Michael landed in Cuba, Roth could use his connections in the Cuban government to squash him.
I believe by the time of their last meeting, both Michael and Roth knew each others' intentions. One of the marvels of that scene is how they held out despite that: Michael to find out who the traitor was, Roth for the $2 million.
Once again: Roth did not engineer Pentangeli's survival to screw Michael. Roth's plan was to lure Michael to Cuba, get the $2 million, and have him killed in a government car on the way home from the Presidential New Year's Eve Party. Why, therefore, would Roth try to engineer an incredibly difficult, incredibly dangerous, split-second-timed rescue of Pentangeli? So that Pentangeli could develop a grudge against Michael and testify against him at a Senate hearing weeks or months after the attempt--by which time, according to Roth's plan, Michael would already be long dead?
And suppose Roth did want to have the cops rescue Pentangeli at the last moment. How would he do it? Call his contact at the police precinct and say, "Hello, Shultz, I want you to send a beat cop to Richie's bar and have him arrive at 3:44 and 25 seconds. Not 3:44 and 15 seconds, not 3:44 and 35 seconds--3:44 and 25 seconds. Got it? Now let's synchronize watches..."
Or, suppose he was lurking outside in a phone booth: "Hello, 56th Police Precinct? Something fishy's going on in Richie's bar. Better send a cop there--but make sure he gets there at 3:44 and 25 seconds." Finally, some common sense.
Mods should mind their own business and leave poster's profile signatures alone.
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Re: Did Roth Buy Michael's Story?
[Re: dontomasso]
#702018
03/10/13 09:45 PM
03/10/13 09:45 PM
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 65
GabbyBM
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Then why the lie? Why tell Frankie that "Michael Corleone says hello" 10 seconds before he's dead? Why not tell him "That jew in Miami sends his regards"?
There's no sense to it. The only reason to do so is to make Frankie believe that Michael ordered the hit on him. And why do that if the main goal is Frankie's death? That's as much nonsense as Sollozzo telling Luca Brasi that "Vito says hello".
Taunting? I'm not buying it. Especially when it's revealed by Tom later that Roth engineered the whole thing.
Last edited by GabbyBM; 03/10/13 09:55 PM.
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Re: Did Roth Buy Michael's Story?
[Re: IvyLeague]
#702054
03/11/13 02:53 AM
03/11/13 02:53 AM
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 65
GabbyBM
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Then why the lie? Why tell Frankie that "Michael Corleone says hello" 10 seconds before he's dead? Why not tell him "That jew in Miami sends his regards"?
There's no sense to it. The only reason to do so is to make Frankie believe that Michael ordered the hit on him. And why do that if the main goal is Frankie's death? That's as much nonsense as Sollozzo telling Luca Brasi that "Vito says hello".
Taunting? I'm not buying it. Especially when it's revealed by Tom later that Roth engineered the whole thing. Keep in mind that the "Michael Corleone says hello" line wasn't originally in the script. Neither Puzo or Coppola came up with it. Danny Aiello thought it up when they were filming it and asked if he could slip that line in and Coppola said he could. Yes, but I believe it's because Coppola knew it added to the narrative of the deception. Aiello obviously knew the reason for the deception. Aiello didn't just say it without a good reason. The reason is Roth pulling a fast one to turn Pentangeli against Michael. This was Roth's "ace in the hole" if things didn't pan out in Cuba. There was enough in place for Pentangeli to blame Michael anyway (siding with the Jew, taking the side of the Rosato brothers over the territories). Aiello's ad-lib just put a stronger emphasis on that sense of betrayal. It was a great line and I'm thankful Aiello and Coppola ran with it. Roth certainly wasn't going to simply trust a second assassination attempt when the first one failed so miserably. Roth wanted a guarantee. Pentangeli was it. If Michael DID get killed in Cuba then Pentangeli's testimony would be pretty worthless to the Senate Committee and he would go away for many years anyway and Roth's problems would still be solved. It was a sure thing. Except Roth didn't plan on Vincenzo showing up to shame his brother. (Incidentally, though it would be easy to take one's time garroting Pentangeli until the cop showed up, the cop popping in at that particular time is really irrelevant. the cop could have popped in two minutes later or even ten minutes later. The only reason for the cop is to find Pentangeli alive with heroin on him so they can start cutting a deal with him) And one more thing I just thought of: If the Tahoe assassins were "out of New York", they were likely Rosato buttonmen. IF that's the case (and I'm not saying it is) then the Rosatos killing Pentangeli would only serve as a reward for their incompetence in Tahoe. Roth wouldn't really gain much by it but the Rosatos would. Why would Roth reward the Rosatos by giving them permission to kill Pentangeli? Just a thought. I would imagine the Rosatos owed Roth BIG TIME for screwing up the hit in Nevada (provided, of course, they WERE Rosato buttonmen)
Last edited by GabbyBM; 03/11/13 03:11 AM.
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Re: Did Roth Buy Michael's Story?
[Re: GabbyBM]
#702134
03/11/13 02:57 PM
03/11/13 02:57 PM
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,568
Sonny_Black
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Posts: 3,568
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And one more thing I just thought of: If the Tahoe assassins were "out of New York", they were likely Rosato buttonmen. IF that's the case (and I'm not saying it is) then the Rosatos killing Pentangeli would only serve as a reward for their incompetence in Tahoe. Roth was behind the attempt and would likely used his own assassins. Probably old members of Murder Inc. The Pentangeli-Rosato conflict was a local matter and did not involve Michael directly. In fact, Michael supported their claim to those territories in the Bronx and ordered Pentangeli to give it to them. The Rosatos were just pawns in Roth's scheme. They wanted Pentangeli out of the way, and this would weaken Michael's position, which is what Roth intended.
"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
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Re: Did Roth Buy Michael's Story?
[Re: olivant]
#702344
03/12/13 12:47 PM
03/12/13 12:47 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,694 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,694
AZ
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Why did FFC allow Danny Aiello's ad-lib, "Michael Corleone says hello," to stay in the script. My theory is that it was intended for Richie the bartender, not for Frankie, who was going to be killed. Richie obviously was a civilian, and he was scared ("Anthony, NO-O-O-O!"). The cops would question Richie when they found Pentangeli's body, if the hit had gone according to plan. Richie wouldn't dare give up the Rosatos, so they fed him that line as a way out: "I dunno who the guys were, but one of them said, 'Micahel Corleone says hello.'" That would have sent the cops directly to Michael. And, even though he had an alibi, the newspapers would play it up: "Pentangeli Murder Points to Top Nevada Gaming Mogul."
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Did Roth Buy Michael's Story?
[Re: dontomasso]
#702447
03/12/13 06:58 PM
03/12/13 06:58 PM
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 65
GabbyBM
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Then I guess the scene begs to ask what all did Ritchie know and when did he know it? Was his bar the go-to place for garroting? Is this the same bar that Luca ended up in?
bartenders are known for their discretion in business and in pleasure.
Here I thought I was sure about this scene and now I have to reconsider everything I thought I knew. I still believe it was the intent to leave Frankie alive, based on the earlier script. but that doesn't mean that was necessarily the intent with the finished product....
Last edited by GabbyBM; 03/13/13 05:23 AM.
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Re: Did Roth Buy Michael's Story?
[Re: dontomasso]
#702543
03/13/13 09:15 AM
03/13/13 09:15 AM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773 Pittsburgh, PA
The Last Woltz
Underboss
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Underboss
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It's clear that the bartender knew the Rosatos. That doesn't mean that the bar was in Rosato territory. I think it's unlikely Frankie would have gone into the lion's den for that meeting. He hardly trusted the Rosatos.
I've never agreed with TB's theory of the "Michael Corleone says hello" line. They never would have committed a murder in front of someone they thought would give the police any information whatsoever. If they thought the bartender would testify honestly, they'd hardly be safe with him telling the police, "The killer was named Carmine and looked like..., and he said 'Michael Corleone says hello.'"
In any case, I doubt they intended that Frankie's body would be found at the bar, so there would have been nothing to connect Richie to the killing.
That line must be either a vestige of an earlier script or an unusually clumsy device to trigger Frankie's betrayal.
"A man in my position cannot afford to be made to look ridiculous!"
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Re: Did Roth Buy Michael's Story?
[Re: dontomasso]
#702651
03/13/13 04:48 PM
03/13/13 04:48 PM
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 65
GabbyBM
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The intention of Frankie getting off alive was evident int he 2nd draft of the script. I have a hard time imagining that the dynamics of the Pentangeli hit had changed from one revision to the next. The outline of the story is consistent throughout. Obviously things are trimmed here and there for brevity.
So I find myself believing that Aiello knows this portion of the script and came up with the idea of his line in order to make the new revision of the script make a certain amount of sense. Unfortunately, tagging Aiello's line as an ad-lib somehow renders the whole thing UNclear, rather than clearing it up. Such is the bane of the internet.
MICHAEL How did they get their hands on Pentangeli?
HAGEN Roth engineered it, Michael. He made Pentangeli think you hit him. Deliberately letting him get off alive. Then the New York detectives turned Frankie over to the FBI. My informants say he was half dead and scared stiff -- talking out loud that you had turned on him and tried to kill him. Anyway, they had him on possession, dealing in heroin, murder one and a lot more. There's no way we can get to him and you've opened yourself to five points of perjury.
I understand that this particular script is not canon while the film is. I don't consider it canon. But I do consider that this script validates and verifies particular motivations behind these scenes. So though the film may not say it, I understand the motivations behind it because of this earlier script.
Last edited by GabbyBM; 03/13/13 04:51 PM.
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