Why would Elwood park be shelved? Difronzo leads that faction and technically he's the boss. I would think one of the smaller crews would be defunct

Cicero
Elmwood
Chinatown
Grand Ave
those are the main ones
could be smaller one like chicago heights, melrose, ect

Posner has always been involved in Outfit gambling, bookmaking, prostituion in Lake County, but as Ricobenes said not a major player. Ricobenes pissed off some posters, but I believe he was spot on in terms of Outfit knowledge in the past and current structure. Elmwood Park is not making new members and Johnny has done a good job in insulating himself from any criminal activity.

I believe the 26th Street Crew merged with Chinatown and Melrose Park crew merged with Cicero.

yeah rico knew a lot. to bad he started a lot of fights

I don't really know but that's what people say. You have to take everything you read with a grain of salt.

Last year the Trib did a piece on the state of the Outfit and an FBI agent was quoted as saying they now have "two or three" crews.

If the FBI doesn't know it's going to be the very rare Internet poster who does.

If I had to guess why Elmwood would be closed its because that is out where nearly all the old school (and just plain old) real gangsters are, like DiFronzo, D'Amico, Andriachhi and others. I expect between them they now own more than enough legit businesses and have more than enough money to not want to risk it by spending the rest of their lives in jail.

Hell if the FBI's numbers on made guys is anywhere near correct, like in the 20s, and it's also true that Mike Posner is a front for three casinos in Aruba and they also have other offshore casinos, why f$$k around with juice loans and car theft. Casinos make a LOT of money.

But that's purely conjecture.

Andriacchi is very sick with cancer and no longer in Chicago. Remember though the Outfit has always had sleepers. Tornabene was a sleeper for 30 years before the FBI knew.

Yeah but explain how he gets three or four casinos. Being a felon no less.

Aruba is corrupt. Who knows.

I know but I'm saying, without mob backing.

I think I've made it clear I am a skeptical as anyone about the outfits current power, but for some mob associate with a rap sheet a mile long to "own" four casinos seems like a fairly large coincidence.

I've never been to Chicago but find it funny that they have Italian OC operating in Chinatown. Chinatown in every other city is usually Chinese people no?

An important distinction.



Interestingly, in 2003, several members of Projectionist Union Local 110, which had past ties to the Outfit, were indicted for conspiracy and arson involving 20 incidents in movie theaters in 10 states related to labor contract disputes. However, the prosecutor said the indictment did not involve organized crime allegations.



Correct. With 25-30 made members and a little over 100 associates, the Outfit has a total manpower of about 150. By comparison, the smallest New York family (the Colombos) have around 100 made members and an estimated 500 associates - 6 times the size of the Outfit. In other words, the modern day Outfit is more comparable to the sizes of the families in New England, New Jersey, and Philadelphia than any of the NY families.



Around the time of the Family Secrets case in 2005, the Outfit was said to have the four crews you listed above - Elmwood, Grand Avenue, Cicero, and 26th Street. However, in 2011 the FBI said the Outfit was down to 2 or 3 crews.



I may be wrong but I'm not sure where these claims of "three or four casinos" comes from. As far as I know, Posner operates the Excelsior casino, which is located within the Holiday Inn Resort. The casino was formerly known as the Grand Holiday Casino when Posner purchased it in the late 1990's.

DNM - my guess is location, location, location... Chinatown is not too far from the University Village/Little Italy neighborhoods.

@IvyLeague - good to see you back posting!

Ivy I am on my phone so this is an abbreviated response but google "posner Aruba casinos" and you will see people saying the other casinos he is rumored to own. Not the NYT, but various people and sites either reporting or conjecturing.

When is the last time the FBI even chimed in on estimates of made guys? Isn't that 25-30 figure itself about 10 years old?

Even if the Outfit maintains some lingering control over projectionist unions, which I doubt, compared to the power they once wielded with people like Korshak and Rosselli, it's somewhat like saying the trailer down the street is a home and Buckingham palace is a home. Both true and substantially meaningless.

Marcello made new guys before he went away. Grand Ave crew has gambling operations in Curacao as well.

I've seen all those and, unless I'm mistaken, the idea comes from the Wikipedia article on him that says -

"Michael Posner is a businessman and casino owner in Aruba. Posner is the owner of the Excelsior, Holiday Inn and Grand Holiday Casinos."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Posner_(businessman)

Now, admittedly, I haven't done much reading on Posner over the years. There isn't much to read. But, as I said before, my understanding is that the Excelsior is the casino he operates. It is the same casino that was called the Grand Holiday Casino back in the 1990's. And this casino is in the Holiday Inn Resort. It seems that people have read these different titles and assumed there were 3 casinos.

(But maybe I'm way off.)



The 28 members figure was in 2007. And that was before Al Tornebene died.

i think a safe bet would be to say the outfit has a total manpower of close to 150, with around 30 made, although there could be a few more, as well as a number of high powered associates with "made guy" status. welcome back ivy, i though i was seeing things when i saw you had posted!

Counting living Outfit Guys, today, who are “made” and are on the street and in prison would be roughly 40 to 50, according to some of my best sources. That what Joe Fosco posted on ANP with in the last 2 years.

I've had a lot of debates about this. Seems like people on one forum or another are very quick to inflate the figures based on questionable sources. We had a specific figure (28) straight from the FBI just 5 years ago. But people didn't like that figure (like that should matter) so they look elsewhere for figures more to their liking.

Well, in my opinion, you're not going to find a better source than the FBI. Not Fosco. And not anyone on the forums. Looking at the estimates over the past 15 years or so, the 28 figure cited in 2007 seems consistent. Especially when you take into account that nearly 20 members have died since 2000.

Of course it's possible that not ever single member has been identified. And it's possible that new members have been made in the last 5 years. But that's all conjecture and doesn't warrant just adding an additional 10-20 members out of nowhere. There's not much chance of 25%-40% of an LCN family's membership flying under the radar today.

^^

Agreed 100 percent. My only comments would be: Was the number reported in 2007 or actually given by the FBI in 2007?

And that you have to figure in those who went to jail for Secrets, Sarno, Tornabre (sp), all of the ancient guys and anyone else who has died/is basically too old to be involved since then.

Sure they could have made more guys but we just don't know.

Back in 1997 we had the Chicago Crime Commission estimate 70 members. More recently we've had one FBI source cite 50 members, while another one only 25. The feds reportedly released a list of 47 current known Outfit members to the press several years ago. The prosecution cited 28 members during the Family Secrets trial. And Nick Calabrese reportedly identified 60 members.

Under Nick Calabrese's deal with the feds, is he obligated to identify/inform/and/or testify against any future indicted Outfit guys? Anybody who follows the Outfit knows that there are always guys (sleepers) that have flown under the radar for decades.

Just one point, the thing about Nick identifying 60 guys was very vaguely worded. At least in the Sun Times piece I read it in. Just to play devil's advocated, it was not entirely clear if all of the members were alive.

Mark, I believe he has to keep testifying. I am not positive but I think I remember them talking about dragging him out for Sarno but they ultimately did not.

Chinatown is right next to Bridgeport, which is probably the most "mobbed up" neighborhood in the city these days, where Caruso, Matasso and several others live. That's where LaPietra's house was, where Ronnie Jarrett was killed, where the Calabrese's often operated out of.

I don't know exactly how the Outfit muscled in on the Chinese, who are huge gamblers, but I expect that at the height of its power it was not very difficult.

Bob Cooley's book goes into depth about a few of the arrangments between the Outfit and the Chinese in Chinatown, like the Fon Long (sp), the Chinese merchant's association, which was basically its own little mob.

They also reportedly came out with a new doc on Ken Eto, but I haven't been able to find it in English.

Ivy, looks like you are corect about those multiple casino references re: Posner. They all seem to go back to that one bad source.

Interesting comment from Joe Fosco:

"Sarno was running it citywide, whether that changed after he was ordered on house arrest, I do not know. There is nothing left but a little sports betting and a small number of poker machines mainly in the south parts (the sports betting is everywhere - but nothing like 20-years ago). For the most part, you are dealing with a number of Italian-Americans that have once been connected to something powerful. Some of them are schemers, others are not. Some help others, some hurt others. They all know each other and talk about each other. Some are physically dangerous and others are not. What do we call it all? An Outfit?

The real money is made abroad in the casinos in Venezuela, Chile, Cost Erica, Aruba and other places like that. Ask DiFronzo what is going on in those places with gambling."

Not trying to be a mob apologist or anything but couldn't the 20-30 made guys be DE flatted? Isn't Chicago notorious for NOT making guys that aren't super earners or middle management?

I would like to know if Chicago even uses a ceremony to make guys anymore. They didn't at first, then did in the 70-80's, now who knows.

I think it all depended on who is/was "steering the ship" at the time.

Agreed Mark. I believe Capone had new members put hands on a Bible, Giancana had big dinner parties, Aiuppa was the boss who used the traditional Cosa Nostra ceremony with gun, knife, holy card etc. I believe Chicago making ceremony of '83 was very formal with all of the leadership present and Tornabene was the MC, but Aiuppa was the boss where as other ceremonies have not included all of the bosses. Ceremonies have taken place at Como Inn which was a popular restaurant but now closed, Spavone's another restaurant, and in a basement of suburban Oak Brook home. I don't know when the last ceremony was and how formal it was.

I thought Carlisi was the guy who started the "traditional" making ceremony, is this true?