Now that is the ticket!

Yes, now your cooking with gas!

Interesting read.

Conservative Case for Gay Marriage

How can you possibly make an assertion that the President and Vice-President are pretending to believe in God? On what basis do you make that statement?

Apparently being a member of the uptight kiss-my-ass club enables you to read minds, that's why, Lilo! And, Carmela, really??? I've seen you jump down plenty of throats when it comes to Sicily and the Sicilian language, so pot, meet kettle.

Can we please stop flinging crap at one another and make some attempt to stay on topic?

i think this is considering flaming another member!


which particular post are you referring to here, or is this just a chance to take a pot shot at somebody who disagrees with a poster who you might agree with?

Whatever.

Hey Hey Hey C'mon Now were all friends here...must be the hot weather today everyone is jacked up

MAJOR respect to Carmela
RESPECT

I think marriage is meant to be between a man and women. That's the way I was raised and believe it to be correct. I am not saying I hate gays or think they deserve rights but IMHO marriage is meant to be between a man and women. I hope I haven't offended anybody.

Only when the topic at hand had/has to do with how things in Italian or Sicilian are spelled and said, have I spoken up. I never just pop in with a one word post for the sheer point of correcting someone. Ever. And when I have done so, I never pick and choose members. I respond to the post and the post only, without even looking at who the member is most times. At least I'm consistent.

I love the stupidity rampant in this thread, people demanding that their religious beliefs should become law (or stay law in DOMA's case) and be applied to everybody else as well. And nobody is aware of how shallow that line of thinking is.

Hey Christian Scientists don't believe in blood transfusions. How about we ban blood transfusions then?

Some Muslims in the Middle East (backed by Theocratic fascist governments and terrorists) accept banning women from driving. Maybe we should ban them from driving too.

Some liberal group thinks Tom Sawyer is a racist book. Let's ban it from libraries and bookstores then!

What the hell is wrong with you people? THINK!

If you want to believe in whatever bullshit you want to believe despite what common sense, common decency, and American values of freedom and equality and Christian themes of love and community, then unfortunately that's your right to be stupid. But dear God, please don't make the rest of us suffer simply because you're weak little tummy is naeseous and easily butthurt.

This is 2013. Not 1983. Or 1973. Or 1993. Or even 2003. Get over it and quit the belly aching. Your descendents will appreciate it. If still butthurt, call a Wahmbulance.



Funny I came across suspiciously similar opinions I found in Letters to the Editor in several East Tennessee newspapers in the 1950s and 60s regarding that whole civil rights issue. And that's white people pissy that blacks wanted to like vote and ride a bus and shit. HOW BLASPHEMOUS!

(The issue of slavery caused the schism within the Baptist Church in America, thus the Southern Baptists left so they could conveniently argue that God in his Bible supported slavery. Hey, don't hate them. They were raised to believe in it.)

Besides, your "belief" as a meter for logicity is quaint when you explore the global history of marriage. Nevermind the whole rationality behind your argument can be easily construed for hate by other parties. ("can"? I'm sure, have already.) You're better than this.

You're not an ape. You're a human being, the one biologically/psychologically advanced creature alive on Earth. An sentient animal with the compacity to overcome its cultural programming for the greater good of yourself and everybody else. Over 1000s of years, we've created values that have been shaped and evolved.

And back to slavery. It was once an accepted way of life and economical livelyhood. Notice Mr. Christ never bothered to hate on slavery that much. Yet in the 18th and 19th centuries in the West, popular movement was made to abolish it on humanistic, Christian appeals that it was...you know, fucking slavery. America ended it by a bloody, pointless war.

Unlike the time of Christ and when the Bible was written, nobody in our time is raised to believe that slavery is acceptable. (With exception of CPAC '13, apparently.) In this regard, we're actually more civilized than that time period in history. Think about it.

Excellent points Ronnie. Good post.

By their actions. You'd have to be willfully blind, in denial, or not understand some of the basic tenants of Christianity not to see it.

When people tell me Obama is a Muslim, I tell them he's no more a Muslim than he is a Christian. He a calculating politician who only pretends to be a Christian in this country because it's politically advantageous. He's for abortion. He's for gay marriage. He just allowed women to be in combat. All the same applies to Biden. He pays lip service to being a believing Catholic but his actions say differently. And, "By their fruits, ye shall know them."

You may agree with them politically, but don't even try to pass these guys off as believing Christians. Unfortunately, I have to say the same about Romney, which is a big reason why I didn't vote for him. The difference is, I expect that from secular leftists like Obama and Biden.



I love how you guys keep pretending that non-religious arguments haven't already been made here.



Textbook secular liberal accusation of those who disagree with them not "thinking" or "using reason?" Check.



I really wish you libs here would quit trying to use parts Christianity or the Bible in your arguments. It's long been apparent to me that none of you understand it, much less believe in it. Yes, Christianity is about love and community. But it's also about obeying the commandments. The spiritually immature pit love against obedience. Don't cherrypick a part of Christianity as a reason to legalize gay marriage.



If something is wrong, it really doesn't matter what year it is. And the only one whining here is you.



Textbook liberal accusation of those against gay marriage being hatemongers like the old racists? Check.



I know I'm not an ape. You and your fellow lefties are the ones who believe we came from apes.

And I love how you think we've been "programmed" but you're the independent, free-thinker. Ah, the arrogance of the secular liberal.



You act like you would even care if Christ did say something about slavery.

Ivy you've really gone to another level of arrogance here. No disrespect, but you're forgetting a majority of what people say on this subject is opinion. It's an extremely touchy subject, but you have to respect that many people don't give a damn about religion in any form or the bible or the commandments of God. Doesn't make them "evil" or a "secular liberal" it's just what they believe to be true. And just because it's not what YOU believe doesn't make them "blind".

I am the Lord thy God, ... Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven images.

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long.

Thou shalt not kill.

Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Thou shalt not steal.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house.


I don't see anything in there about gay marriage, homosexuals or anything gay-related. I see basic tenets of life - worship the one true God and no others, honor Him on the Sabbath, don't steal, don't kill, don't covet, don't lie.

You're the classic example of what I'm talking about. Did you miss the scriptures in both the Old and New Testaments that specifically denounce homosexual acts?

I'm fully aware many here don't give a damn about religion. I'm not attempting to change that. I'm just saying you have no business trying to marginalize religion in government and law making by misinterpreting what "separation of church and state" means.

And anyone who doesn't see that Obama and Biden's actions directly conflict with some of the basic tenants of Christianity is blind. There's no getting around that. Unfortunately, in Obama's case, he mirrors much of the black community in general. Their churches are rather conservative, teaching directly from the Bible, but they sell themselves to the Democratic party (which is all but antagonistic to religion) for a mess of pottage.

I would agree that Obama and Biden don't mirror traditional Christianity, and I don't think for a second they take it seriously. What I see is they both use it for political purposes. BUT that doesn't mean because they support abortion and gay marriage makes them any less Christian even if they were true followers of the religion. Plenty of Christians believe that gay marriage is fine (although I would say a fair number I know are against abortion)

I don't argue that parts of the consitution and Declaration of Independence have "Judeo-Christian ethics" within their text. Many of the founding fathers were religious, but just as many if not more were athiest or deist. I say again our basic structure of law came from the Enlightenment and the basic blueprint was the British parliment and system of law, which at the time was the closest thing to a democracy on Earth. I also hold firm that religion should not interfere with politics or law making. It's dangerous and should be kept out of Congress and the White House. I personally don't agree with the "under God" line in our pledge of alleigance. God IMO has nothing to do with our nation or what goes on inside of it.

At least you recognize Obama and Biden for what they are.

The plenty of Christians you speak of, who are fine with gay marriage are, at best, cafeteria Christians. They hold onto the religion, to a certain degree, for one reason or another. But they follow their own political and social ideology more religiously. Sorry, but homosexuality isn't one of those "grey" areas that's open to individual interpretation. Both the Old and New Testaments are very clear on the subject. Not just "dismissive" as Lilo was saying. So, for so-called Christians to go against that is a major thing. An apostate shift.



The last line in your post above is the most telling. In fact, it's scary that you and others really feel this way. You really do think God "has nothing to do" with this nation and what goes on inside it. It's that kind of secularism, which seeks to marginalize the idea of God if it can't remove it altogether, that will be the downfall of us.

According to the Old Testament they should be killed. Is that what you want? If not - why?

That's what I thought. Again, there is a difference between an opinion and a statement of fact. It is your opinion that the President and Vice-President are wrong politically on many issues. I would never question your right to believe that. I believe they are wrong on many issues.

But when you write that they are pretending to believe in God, that's a statement of fact. You ought to be able to provide some evidence besides the fact that you disagree with them. As far as I know you're not Mrs. Obama or Mrs. Biden or anyone else privy to Pres/VP's innermost thoughts. So you're making an assertion, a somewhat offensive one, with absolutely nothing to back it up. This is one step above people saying Obama is the Antichrist. It's also in opposition to virtually everything in the New Testament where man is repeatedly told that it's God's role to judge, not his.

Ivy, to which basic tenets of Christianity do you refer? Because after all there are dozens of different kinds of Christians, who fiercely disagree on matters large and small. As you know some Christians feel that Mormons aren't Christians. If someone made that as a statement of fact, would you accept it. No.

Ted Olson is for gay marriage. Is he pretending to be Christian?

There are Christians who are feminist and Christians who are traditionalist. There are Christians who fight to save the environment and Christians who joyfully slaughter elephants and strip-mine mountains. There are Christians who are pacifist and Christians who enjoy starting wars. There are pro-life Christians and pro-choice Christians. There are Christians who believe the Pope is the highest human authority on Earth and Christians who think he's just a man like anyone else. There are Christians who believe salvation is by grace alone and Christians who believe deeds and faith play a part. There are Christians who believe that imperialism and colonialism were good things and Christians who do not. There are Christians who focus on helping the poor and feeding the hungry and Christians who think Jesus was an Randian free market devotee. All of these groups overlap of course. Which of those groups are the "true" Christians?

In short once you get past a few basic creeds, there are a million and one ways to be a Christian. What you believe doesn't necessarily predict your politics. This is why it's important to have separation of religion and politics. Religion, or at least some religions, claim to have the inerrant Truth. Politics doesn't.

Here's the first amendment:


Therefore what you say that government has no business trying to marginalize religion in government is simply and clearly wrong. When such laws go contrary to the rights of people who do not believe in that specific religion, I believe according to the 1st amendment government should and must part with laws that marginalize people's rights.

As for what those in government have to do when things go against their beliefs, this is the most tricky part of the religion. You can't have two masters and serve them both faithfully. If someone is elected to the office in the US, I think they should put the constitution first, as they are not elected by just a certain religious members of the country. They have to represent all people, be they believers or nonbelievers. They can keep their beliefs to matters only concerning themselves.

That's the most optimistic I could be about religion. My personal beef with it, is that although the 1st amendment is kindly trying to respect the existence of different religions, the nature of religions are not accepting of other religions or even nonbelievers. Religions constantly order their followers to meddle in other people's lives. Just like you are trying to make us understand that marriage has to be the way you define it. You don't take "Okay, you can have your marriage, Adam and Steve can have their marriage as well." for an answer, because you are so much better than some gay folks, right? Oh, the vanity!

Ronnie ive been saying this for years! Think how safe the roads would be without them!

IvyLeague, do you confuse secularism and atheism?
A Christian can be a perfect secularist.

About fucking time someone made a post worth reading. Nice job, kid .

And a secularist can be a perfect ass.

This thread has gone on for at least ten pages too long. And I don't even have a horse in this friggin race. Bottom line: If your religious, you shouldn't proselytize. It's off putting and senseless. It places you just above the Moonies and Scientologists on the religious food chain.

If you're non-religious, you should practice the so-called tolerance that liberals are always preaching. Because I have to tell you, liiberals are only tolerant until people don't agree with them. Then they're capable of just as much hate as the far righties, and don't say they're not. ONE EXTREME IS NO BETTER THAN THE OTHER!!!!

And Olivant? You and I have always pretty much gotten along, I think, because of our shared Italian American heritage. But stop fucking correcting people. When you use those big snobby words, you sound like Little Carmine on "The Sopranos." And God knows that he was a retard.

And jumping down Carmela's throat for pointing out the obvious, and being CONSISTENT about it, is just bush league. Her posts are more articulate than 90 percent of the posters here all week long and twice on Sundays.

I have nothing else to offer to the "DOMA" debate. Ever. The only reason I even wrote this much is because I'm tired of reading this bullshit.

Just trying to lighten the mood now i'll go back to sitting on this fence