Nope- for DT that IS normal Then again, the term winghole is something new... even for him

Great post. Don't let DT rattle you, his bark is worst then his bite.

He doesn't use smileys so it is a lot harder to know if he is serious or sarcasitic or just plain busting balls.

Post till your hearts content....and always give back as good as you get.

Yeah, house chores are horrifying. Raising children which is dumped completely on women, is horrifying. I mean, what man in his right mind wants to feed and cloth the children, cook, do the laundry, pay the bills, take children to school, take them to doctors, nurse them through sickness, prepare their lunch boxes, help them with homework, clean up after them ... and the list goes on and on. The result of these gender roles are mothers that either love their children and resent their husband, or are totally ready to walk out on all of them.

Gender roles are simply the sexist way of taking advantage of women, or the sexist way of looking at men, thinking that they are unable to do house chores or raise children. I think they are up to the task. Some just don't want to do it and hide behind the gender roles.

I think these gender roles have diminished significantly over the past 20 or so years within families, and for the most part it is for the better. Fathers' involvement in things like preparing food, bathing their babies, etc.had increased.

More important is the way children are seen. It was not all that long ago when bright young girls had the career choices to become secretaries or nurses. Now they are outnumbering young men in many professional schools, and will imho take over much of the medical and legal professions.

I am unclear what the people objecting to the change in the way genders are perceived really mean.

Correction, that's how it used to be. Not so much anymore, more girls than ever are going to college, have professional jobs, and are surpassing men in many fields

The real truth is that we don't have to accept things if we don't want to.

If you bitch about a fathers/ daughters dance or you must use parent instead of father/mother then I say Screw you!
Everyone can have rights...that is until you try and take my rights away!

If my local school has been called the Warriors or the Braves and some indian group complains..I say go F*@k yourselves

We have to stop bowing down to All that make a stink about such things. You don't like Christ and don't want religon in public place- to F"en bad...then don't thake the holiday off. It is called Merry Christmas, not Happy Holidays. and I am not changing it because some Wingholes want to make a stink!
THANK-YOU

In fact, I never understood why this "Merry Christmas" and "Happy Holidays" matter is even a problem for somebody. If a Muslim congratulated me with some Islamic holiday, I wouldn't be offended at all.

Yes, but when they tell you that you shouldn't say this or that ..then it matters.

I agree with JoeSchmo, Afs.

Now I'm not trying to offend you. I think you know me better than that. But I think that the treatment of women is still so horrifying in Iraq that you might be projecting some of that on American women. And to be honest, I'll bet there are plenty of women in your country who would trade in their burqa for a frying pan in a heartbeat.

Besides, the days of June Cleaver and Harriet Nelson are over in the United States. Yes, there's a long way to go in that women still don't make as much money as men as a rule, but it's not the '50s anymore either.

I agree, I never got it why would anybody be annoyed by one of these phrases and would try to eliminate one to substitute it with the other.

Iraq? Burka? Now I'm offended. I'm not projecting anything. It's like that still in America. I think you are mixing trends of a big city with that of small towns in the US. That's exactly where people are scared of these changes in gender roles. In fact when I came there, I was shocked. All I listed was what most women were doing, and husbands were almost irrelevant when it came to their children, except playing sports with them.

Just to be clear, I live in Iran. I'm not sure if burka is a thing in Iraq, but it isn't in Iran. Burka was a mandatory dress code for women in Afghanistan and is still in Saudi Arabia. You could see the type of hejab that's required for us with an easy google search for "Iranian hijab." Not sure what you mean with this trading burka with frying pan, but comparing the life of women in Alabama with that of Iran, I thought, heck, it was like that back in Iran, so why did I even move? Just to take off my scarf?

Iraq was an honest typo. I know you live in Iran. As far as the burqa-hijab mixup, I apologize, but I think you get my point. So I'll corrrect myself. The women in your country would trade in their hijab for a frying pan in a heartbeat.

But by posting "it's still like that in America," you're implying that we've made zero progress. It's also beyond ignorant to imply that the only differnce between Alabama and Iran is "taking off your scarf." If you could have stayed here, you would have. Any sane person would.

My main beef is that you're saying that we've made no progress, and I'm saying that we have. We've made a lot of progress, and it's not just in the big cities. You're propagating the southern-redneck stereotype in saying that we haven't.

Your problem is that you got to see very small part of America for a very short time period, and your envy of the freedoms of American women is very transparent. Don't get me wrong. I don't blame you. What sane oppressed woman wouldn't be envious?

I could've gotten married and stayed, just like anyone else that does so. Then I would've probably had to do all that I listed. So put me under insane.

Anyway, don't put words in my mouth. Obviously there are people who are scared of gender role changes. And my post was toward them, otherwise why should they be worried about disappearance of gender roles?

And please put me under disappointed to see there are still people in the US that hate their freedom so much, they want to oppress women, homosexuals, minorities, etc.

You're seriously going to compare social issues in America to Iran? Come on don't bullshit us

I personally have nothing against changing gender ROLES, but when politicians in France forbid to use words "father" and "mother" in official documents and when father-daughter dances are forbidden just because some people consider them not politically correct enough, do you put such people into the "sane" category? Don't they really have anything else to do?

You're picturing Saudi Arabia. Iran actually has a rather long history of liberalism going back to the early 20th century, and arguably before then. And you do realize, that the Iranian revolution, which put the current regime in power, happened partly due to the US helping overthrow a democratically elected government in favor of a puppet monarchy right? It's not their fault they're now under Islamic theocracy, as they actually tried to continue social and governmental liberalism progress after the Constitutional Revolution and Mossadegh era, and then tried again recently as few years ago. Remember 1906?! 1953? 1979.

"Masculine" and "feminine" can be loaded terms and can mean very different things to people across varied cultures, times and different countries. But usually they always mean different things to people no matter where you are.

I am no feminist. I think it is important to remove obstacles which are based on stereotypes and maybe even provide help to get over stereotypical/discriminatory thinking. But I think when people try to eliminate father/daughter dances that's too far. Let people do what they like and be who they are. If some people want to marry same sex fine. But if some people glory in and enjoy sex differences that's fine too.

Amazing that all the men are the ones who think we've made progress. Yes, we have. Women get careers, too, in addition to the house and the kids.

I went back to work outside the home when my youngest was 9 months old. I was primarily responsible for the house, the meals, the kids, their schoolwork, the bills, the food shopping, the laundry, PLUS I was Vice President of a local non-profit.

I have to say that my husband did what he could, but his commute was 52 miles each way and mine was 6. Why would the school call him to come pick up the kids if they were sick when he was over an hour away and I was 10 minutes away? But it was more than that, because I have lots of friends with children and most of them worked when the kids were little, and most of them were the primary caregivers and kept the homes.

Add all that to the fact that we also get "working mother's guilt" (why don't father's feel guilty?), and it's still fairly unbalanced in many homes.

Please don't make stuff up. France didn't forbid the use of term mother and father, they changed it to "parents" to simplify the legal language and make it regardless of the sex of the parents, so that it would include homosexual parents.

Personally, I don't think it is such a great idea to have a father daughter dance. So how about those who have lost their fathers or don't have one to begin with? Can't they dance with their mother? Why do you have to remind them that they are different? All these social pressures to conform to a certain family pattern is what is insane. I think it is important to have male and female influences in the lives of all the children. But then there are relatives and teachers from both sexes for that matter.

It was serious as a heart attack for me. This is the choice I was facing when I lost my job there. Get married and stay, or just simply leave.

I can drive here. I did get an education here. I can get a job here. I would get paid less than a man here. I would have to do all the housework here on top of my day job. All check.

The only thing that would be different in my day to day life would be having to wear a scarf. I think being 8000 miles away from my family balanced that equation for me, not to enter a loveless marriage and stay over there. So there you have my list of pros, cons and things that don't make a difference based on which I made a decision.

Thanks Frank for clarifying that.

BTW, for those interested to see pictures of Iran, especially that of what women wear as their covering, I refer you to the photoblog of a photographer from NY who has traveled here. There are many pictures from people of Iran. Check out the women. Hijab could be as loose as this.

This is a gal from my hometown:



More here: http://www.humansofnewyork.com/tagged/iran



Thanks SB. I was hoping you weigh in. In the issue of social equality, I see men talk the talk, but then at their own home, they seldom walk the walk.

Afs, I don't mean to disparage my husband at all, he's a great husband and a fantastic father. However, the bulk of the household responsibilities fell to me. Most women are in the same boat, and men may want to be helpful, but they don't even know where half the stuff in the house is kept.

I know. It's usually the love that makes it all worthwhile. But it doesn't change the fact that gender roles are still here, and probably are there to stay in straight families for better or worse.

You know what- You and your husband are the ones who control EVERYTHING in your life. What you do, who does it and how much you do and even if you do it at all.
Choice is still avaiable.

This is the kind of thoughts that screw up everyones life. People shouldn't be abe to do this and that because of these few odd reasons.

People get over it! You cry out that you want the Gay population to have this right and that right but then you turn around saying (example) this father-daughter dance is not a good Idea? How F*#ked up is that?

Like I said it is time we tell people who make these kinds of stink to PISS OFF. Plain and simple we will no longer Cowtau to your whinning any longer.
Piss and moan all you want but some of us Like the way things are and we aren't going to change every word, name or event because some whinner can find a loop hole making it sound wrong!
Thank-You

And you know this how? How many American homes have you been inside of and actually witnessed that men don't "walk the walk"?

Christ Almighty, at least Sicilian Babe has a husband and a frame of reference to post about. She's lived here all her life and she tells a very familiar story. A story similar to that of my own wife. The story of a strong woman who had to work AND raise kids AND run the house. Have you done any of that or are you just bitter because you haven't had the chance?

That's a rhetorical question because the answer is very clear to just about everyone here. I mean, you say you could have gotten married and stayed here, but is that really true? Is it possible that you would have loved to do just that but couldn't find an American man who wanted to marry you? Is that why you're so bitter and angry towards American men? Again, rhetorical. You would have jumped at the chance to marry any man to keep you in this beautiful country, hence your bitterness.

As far as father-daughter dances, give me a fucking break. I raised two daughters who are both in their 20s now. Such events were high points in their lives as well as my own. And until you raise children of your own and can post about it in twenty years, you can go piss up a rope with that leftist nonsense. Maybe you can move to France, see if they'll take you. You know, being that America wouldn't.

To everyone else, members and mods, I apologize for my hostility. But I raised two daughters who I'm very close to, and this whole father-daughter thing brought out the worst in me. Not ALL men are useless in the home. That's all I'm trying to say.

God bless America.

as far as the husband wife dynamic, i've seen a ton of anti-man bullshit being posted here, very sad. in this day and age, families are free to divide the work load up however they see fit. anyone bitter about having to do more than what they feel is their fair share are free to take the issues up with their spouse, like fatherson mentioned. otherwise, shut up already and quit trying to project your anger on the unfair societal restraints that really only exist in the minds of folks who are bitter for whatever reason.

as far as the father daughter dances go, holy fucking shit! the idea that some on here actually think they have a valid argument as to why the name should be changed says alot, and not in a good way! its yet another example of the idea that if we just try, we can live in a world where everyone is 100% even and nobody has to suffer through the horror of being offended or being left out, probably the biggest load of bullshit i've heard! we fucking wonder why people snap these days! people are increasingly being brought up in a world where they are raised under the silly delusions that everyone is a winner, everyone gets a trophy. once they get out in the real world and get a reality check, many are simply unable to process it and cope, and we have seen the results.

I concur with FF and PB. This political correctness is getting ridiculous. You can only take it so far. And just for the record, if there's a mother-son thing ever in my lifetime I'm sure as hell calling her my "mother" and not my fucking "parent" because it might offend someone. And if it does, honestly that's just stupid as hell. I also know if I have a wife someday I will consider her my equal in the relationship. In terms of workload I'm not thinking that far ahead, but I'm certainly not going to lay on a couch, watch tv with a beer in my hand and ask her to make me a sandwich.

I also agree completely with Fatherson, PB, and Felonies.

And in my house, my husband works 90 hours a week on average, without a complaint. He takes one day off a week on Sunday, so if he's sitting on the couch watching tv on his day off, and asks for a sandwich, you can bet your ass, I'm making it and anything else he asks for. He deserves it. I sure as hell don't want to trade roles with him in a million years. That's what works for us.
Oh and he's more than happy to be present at as many of the kids' functions as possible, as well as father/daughter dance.

PB, you could be as cruel as you like. I wouldn't mind it. This is the exact reaction women activists get when they state this matter over here. It's interesting to see you get the same reaction from American men as well. They rip you apart, call you bitter, and the rest of the nonsense. You could patronize me all you want, that's my observation of the American families. And I read an article recently to back it up:

Why there are more walk-away moms

On the father daughter dance, no one is trying to deny you the pleasure of dancing with your daughter. But high school is cruel enough, without all these social pressures. If they change it to dance with your parent event, it's more inclusive and less heartbreaking for those who have lost their father. I know if I didn't have a father for such an event, I would've been very heartbroken.

And thanks for immigration advice. I'm not planning to move anyway. The grass always seems to be greener on the other side, but I'm strangely happy here.