I didn't say that I now believe that Fredo had his guys to do it, nor have I ever said that I believed it was Fredo doing it alone. Any of his guys who could have helped him would have been aware that support came from Hyman Roth, Johnny Ola and perhaps some factions in New York. Michael hadn't exactly won the popularity contest by killing all the other Dons. There was a lot of bad blood and I'm sure there were many who wanted to see him out of the picture. Fredo, no matter the extent of his involvement, was nothing more than a pawn.



Maybe you should just stick to real-life organized crime, using the FBI's statements and statistics and playing it safe. This part of the forum is dedicated to theorizing and debate, 'insane scenarios' or not. Take it or leave it.

At least they weren't Roast Beef Drapes Sonny

I'm not really sure there would be a good honest way to reveal Rocco's treason if that were to in fact occur. It would be hard to write such a scene into the film and keep it from coming off as pedestrian and in-your face. Rocco didn't really talk to other people and a scene where Roth and Ola approach Rocco personally would just be to obvious and clumsy- especially since it would have had to have happened before the start of the film.

It also would have muddied the waters for the viewers of who was the traitor. So even though it fits beautifully on paper, it really would have been a difficult reveal on film. As it is, i think the subtlety of it works just fine- even though many don't have any reason to believe it. (and isn't that how Rocco got away with it?)

A lot of thing "could" have happened. Maybe aliens came down and opened the drapes. My point is, even here one's theories have to stay within the framework of the movie itself, i.e. what it actually shows.

Or what COULD be implied, I'd say.

if roth had contacted rocco for the hit, would'nt he ( roth )have had some idea of what rocco looked like and suspected something was up when rocco is at the airport trying to pass himself off as a reporter?

in the hit scene, right after the compound is locked down, the bodyguards let the dogs loose down the drainpipe - 1) if anybody had been around that drainpipe, those dogs would have alerted to that and been going crazy. 2) a scene or 2 later, the 2 hitmens bodys are found in a ditch by a similar looking drainpipe. 3) how many drain pipes are on the property. 4) wouldnt a security minded mike have bars or fencing welded over the openings to prevent access through them. 5) if there is only 1 drainpipe, with everybody walking through out the compound, somebody would have been standing by the drainpipe that the dogs were sent down waiting for them to return, how did the bodies show up in that ditch?

You make good points not only about Roth recognizing Rocco at the airport, but about the dogs at the compound.

To reiterate though, while one may speculate about who may have done what in the films, such speculation would be more credible if it was not a flight of fancy.

Interesting discussion you guys have going. I've often wondered who killed those 2 gunmen.

I think more then one person had to have killed them. Assuming both gunmen were still armed, how would one guy cut the throat of 2 armed men? I'll give you the first one but the second? I would think he would of noticed number 1 get his throat cut and would of fought back or shot the attacker. Don't you usually cut someones throat open from behind them?

That is, admittedly, a decent argument. So, in this scenario, Rocco had most likely only communicated with Roth through an intermediary, perhaps Johnny Ola. Ofcourse, Roth might have not recognised Rocco at the airport as he was clearly exhausted and wasn't paying much attention to his suroundings, but that's probably a little far-fetched...

Another more viable reason why Rocco was sent on a suicide mission is that he, as head of security, had failed in his task to protect Michael on his own compund.

Roth didn't NEED to meet with Rocco. Ola could have handled it. But even so, Roth didn't have a whole lot of time to focus on Rocco while surrounded by police, Feds and several reporters gunning for the story of Roth's fall from grace. Had Rocco NOT been killed in the airport, it's even possible that Roth's dying words could have been "It was Rocco...". But since Rocco was killed, Roth wouldn't have seen the point in identifying him.

As far as the dogs go, don't you think they know Rocco and recognize his scent as it is pretty much EVERYWHERE on the compound. I think this certainly indicates an insider slashing the assassins' throats as the dogs might be inclined to "bloodhound" the scent of an intruder. But Rocco? No. The hounds knew his scent (and probably Fredo's too) and wouldn't think twice about it.

I would imagine a compound that size has several drainpipes and drainage ditches leading down to the lake.

Gabby -
i never said any thing about a "scent". Scent is a smell. I said 'sent'. Sent - the past tense of send.

as far as Rocco, I never said anything about the dogs recognizing him, I said as far as Roth recognizing him. etc..

what i'm saying is that if I was in mike's position, you could rest assured that those pipes would have several pipes and grates welded at the entrances and exits to them to stop pretty much anything except for water and wind from passing through.

There is more than one question that accrues to this subject.
1) was the person who opened the drapes the same person who murdered the assassins?

2) was the brief interim between the attempted murder and the locating of the assassin's bodies sufficient time for them to have been murdered at that location or murdered some place else and their bodies carried or drug to where they were found?

3) Why were the bodies located next to what appears to be a drainage pipe (in Texas we call that a tinhorn)? Was that their intended escape route (as someone posted above, why was the compound end of the pipe not grated or otherwise rendered impassable by a human)?

4) Of course, how did the assassins gain entry to the compound?

5) What was used to murder the assassins? A knife? A pistol with a silencer?

1. the person who opened the drapes did not necessarily have to be the same person who killed the hitters, and likely was not. The more I dwell on this question the more likely I believe it was Fredo who would have had access to the inner sanctum of the house, and he did it on Johnny Ola's orders.

2. The would be killers could have died as soon as they shot their last bullet so it sounded like a part of the actual hit. This would have been done by another member of the team who managed to escape. I also believe this person was helped by Fredo one way or another. Remember at one point Deanna was screaming something about their being right outside her window.

3. I think they were dragged to the drainage pipe, so it didn't matter if there was a grate. They were already dead. Maybe if there wasnt thats how the other conspirator got out.

4. I would think they gained access during the party, which would have been relatively easy.

I think they used the same way to get entry to the compound as exit: the drain pipes. That's why the 'backup' team knew where to kill them after learning that they failed.

I doubt Fredo, as the official underboss of the family, would be taking orders from Johnny Ola.



It would be a pretty balsy and kind of retarted move to drag the bodies all the way to the drain pipes after the failed hit. Within minutes after the hit the place was crawled with bodyguards and German shepherds.

Too bad Michael didn't think about installing bullet proof glass. It would have saved all this speculation, but then again there would be no GFII. So to answer this ongoing question, can we agree that FFC and Puzo opened the drapes?

Olivant;

I saw g2 last year in the theatre, on the one shooters neck, you could see that his throat was slit, the other shooters neck wasnt as visible.

That observation has been posted before and, thus, prompts the same question as it did then: Was Fredo sufficiently adept both emotionally and physically to cut someone's throat (and maybe another's)? If not, who then?

No and nobody.

The idea of a single person killing two professional killers in the aftermath of a hit, when they'd surely be on their guard, by slitting their throats (or one throat) does not stand up to scrutiny.

So then you're left with the idea of multiple traitors, or at least multiple teams of hit men running around the grounds. Again, this doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Pure directorial license.

I agree W. I think that so much we debate about is directorial license.

I agree. And since all of it is directorial license I suggest we stop debating and close this section of the forum.

Amen.

First of all how you said they would kidnap Michael force him to work out a deal and release him was the stupidest thing i have ever heard and i literally laughed at that. First of all attempting to kidnap someone like Michael Corleone is already a dumb idea much less releasing him after would only sign your death warrant.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Roth planned to kidnap Michael, just that they may have told Fredo that was their plan to get him to open the drapes.

Yes, kidnapping and releasing Michael may not have made much sense, but Fredo wasn't exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer - and he was desperate for respect and power - so it's not too far-fetched to think he may have believed that kidnapping Michael, not killing him, was Roth's plan.

I'm not convinced that that is what really happened, but I haven't heard an alternative theory that better explains Fredo's "You guys lied to me" comment on the phone to Ola.

Only Fredo would be dumb enough to believe there was a viable plan to kidnap Michael. I think it is more telling when Fredo tells Johnny during that "wrong number" conversation that they'd got him in deep enough already.

And btw what would make Ola think Fredo was privy to whether or not Frankie was on the level with the Rosato deal?

DT, I think that Fredo was Ola's only source of such info. However, with Fredo in Nevada and Frankie in NY, it does seem quite a stretch for Ola to think that at all. But, as I stated, who else cold Ola turn to?

I guess Ola had no one else to whom he could turn, which leads me to speculate that maybe Fredo exaggerated his role in the family business to Ola and Roth. In truth Michael always kept Fredo in the dark on everything important(by Fredo's own admission in the boathouse scene). Still Fredo made a deal with Ola and Roth to get Mike to ease up on the "negotiations" for the "big deal" in exchange for something on his own. Maybe Fredo was playing both sides.

Well, I just don't see Fredo in any position (status or knowledge) to try and get Michael to ease up on the negotiations. Thus, you are probably right that Fredo did exaggerate his family position when he talked to Ola.

Ok, Oli, so lets take it to the next level just for yucks. Hyman Roth went back for decades with Vito Corleone. He knew all about Sonny, probably about his temper, and surely about his death. Through Moe Green he had to know that when things were going badly for the Corleones in NY, and while Vito was recuperating, that Fredo was sent to Vegas with the cover story of nerves, but in truth to keep him out of the way. He also probably heard from Moe about what an idiot Fredo was, his cocktail waitress exploits and so forth. He also had to know that Vito made a deal and brought Michael back, passed Fredo over, and that eventually Michael became the Don. He also knoew exactly "who gave the order" to put a bullet in Moe's eye.

Moe was no idiot, and I don't believe for one second that he really believed that Fredo could influence a business decision Michael was making. Besides, the "big deal" they were working on was Havana. The details of the negotiatiions had to be who was getting what share of which venue, how much money had to be paid and so forth. As we know further, Roth was always running around proclaiming Michael to be his heir apparent when he died of that 40 year old heart attack.

SO...........when Ola happened to bump into Fredo in Beverly Hills (wink, nod) la allowed Fredo to exaggerate his position in the family and made the ensuing promises about him getting something for himself. Now since Roth, and by extension Ola knew Fredo could do nothing to get him to change Mike's position on negotiations, they wanted him for one thing only...to set Michael up for the hit, and to use Fredo in some way to make it easy for them to be successful. So the drapes do get opened, and something goes on, according to Deanna, right underneath her window.

So at this point we can say the drapes were opened by Fredo... maybe he told a maid Mike wanted them open.. who knows...and we know Fredo had something to do with the hittters who were on the property.

We can also easily surmise if Roth had been successful in killing Mike, that Fredo would be next on his list. I would suspect a meeting in Havana, where Fredo would be safe, might have been the ticket.