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Re: How do we know the Genovese are so powerful?
[Re: PP]
#716438
05/19/13 08:47 PM
05/19/13 08:47 PM
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,108
Giancarlo
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,108
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Thanks Barrett, i was just reading that. They threw Carmine Consalvo off a roof and later they threw his brother off a roof too. The cops called it : "The Murder Of The Flying Consalvos".  Same article said 2 drug dealers(George Adamo & Charles LaRocca) that were associates of the Gambino's were killed too. So thats a possible 4 hits, interesting. Maybe there really is something to the story.
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Re: How do we know the Genovese are so powerful?
[Re: Chopper2012]
#737660
08/30/13 06:59 PM
08/30/13 06:59 PM
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 999
mulberry
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 999
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Any Boss who enjoys media attention is bat-shit crazy. The two most famous gangsters of the 20th century were also two of the worst. Gotti and Capone were nowhere near the worse. Take a look at Scarfo, Amuso/Casso, or Persico. They did much more damage to their families
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Re: How do we know the Genovese are so powerful?
[Re: IvyLeague]
#737686
08/31/13 03:36 AM
08/31/13 03:36 AM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,418 Secret location (WITSEC)
HairyKnuckles
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,418
Secret location (WITSEC)
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Idk. They are obviously at least the 2nd most powerful and 2nd richest family. They coupd very well be the richest and most powerful. But the Gambino's in their prime were a money making machine. In every book I read, every show I see, everything my father has said, the Gambinos were the richest and most powerful. But we don't know for sure because we don't know actual figures. Carlo gambino was a better boss than anyone the Genovese's ever had though. The Genovese family has always been the richest and most powerful. The Gambinos rivaled them in many ways, especially during Carlo's reign, but they never surpassed them. The Gambinos simply got the press but the Genovese family was more quiet, more sophisticated, and well run. I respectfully somewhat disagree. If you take a look at the bosses convicted and sentenced throughout history up until 1998, the Gambinos had only John Gotti and Anastasia (for contempt and later tax evasion) put behind bars. Luciano, Costello, Genovese, Catena, Tieri (if boss), Salerno (if boss) and Gigante were all Genovese bosses who were convicted and sent to prison. Overall I would say (if using this factor and this is an important one in my opinion) that the Gambino bosses were far more successful in avoiding being sent to prison. And the numbers of made guys in the two crime families (atleast during the time span mentioned) has always been to the Gambinos advantage. I guess other factors can come into play such as the total money made, but honestly, how would we know the exact numbers?
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Re: How do we know the Genovese are so powerful?
[Re: HairyKnuckles]
#737706
08/31/13 11:25 AM
08/31/13 11:25 AM
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,146
abc123
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,146
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Idk. They are obviously at least the 2nd most powerful and 2nd richest family. They coupd very well be the richest and most powerful. But the Gambino's in their prime were a money making machine. In every book I read, every show I see, everything my father has said, the Gambinos were the richest and most powerful. But we don't know for sure because we don't know actual figures. Carlo gambino was a better boss than anyone the Genovese's ever had though. The Genovese family has always been the richest and most powerful. The Gambinos rivaled them in many ways, especially during Carlo's reign, but they never surpassed them. The Gambinos simply got the press but the Genovese family was more quiet, more sophisticated, and well run. I respectfully somewhat disagree. If you take a look at the bosses convicted and sentenced throughout history up until 1998, the Gambinos had only John Gotti and Anastasia (for contempt and later tax evasion) put behind bars. Luciano, Costello, Genovese, Catena, Tieri (if boss), Salerno (if boss) and Gigante were all Genovese bosses who were convicted and sent to prison. Overall I would say (if using this factor and this is an important one in my opinion) that the Gambino bosses were far more successful in avoiding being sent to prison. And the numbers of made guys in the two crime families (atleast during the time span mentioned) has always been to the Gambinos advantage. I guess other factors can come into play such as the total money made, but honestly, how would we know the exact numbers? Carlo Gambino was as good a boss as Gigante-Genovese so the power would have been the same, Gambinos fucked up from around 1983-4 right up to today,The Genovese from 1983-4 today have not had the bad luck of the Gambinos so the power would be with the Genovese right now but never count out Gambinos they have a brand name the world over and all it would take it 5 years run to tune around to the good times again for them.
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Re: How do we know the Genovese are so powerful?
[Re: PP]
#737810
09/01/13 02:23 AM
09/01/13 02:23 AM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
IvyLeague
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
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I respectfully somewhat disagree. If you take a look at the bosses convicted and sentenced throughout history up until 1998, the Gambinos had only John Gotti and Anastasia (for contempt and later tax evasion) put behind bars. Luciano, Costello, Genovese, Catena, Tieri (if boss), Salerno (if boss) and Gigante were all Genovese bosses who were convicted and sent to prison. Overall I would say (if using this factor and this is an important one in my opinion) that the Gambino bosses were far more successful in avoiding being sent to prison. And the numbers of made guys in the two crime families (atleast during the time span mentioned) has always been to the Gambinos advantage. I guess other factors can come into play such as the total money made, but honestly, how would we know the exact numbers? First, one of the most fundamental ideas of organized crime is the organization not being dependent on a single man, even the boss. So, I'm not sure that some Gambino bosses avoiding prison, in itself, would necessarily make that family stronger. Second, much of the belief about the Gambinos being dominant during Carlo's reign seems to have come from two false theories - 1) that Carlo was the "boss of bosses" and controlled other families. And 2) that the Genovese family suffered from lack of leadership. Of course, neither was true. Third, even when the Gambinos were larger, it wasn't by a significant amount. Not in the way either of those families were larger than the three smaller NY families. But Carlo in my opinion was the boss of all bosses. Not that he actually said that or that he was crowned that but everybody knew it. He was the boss of bosses like Luciano was. They were both never officially crowned that but everybody knew they were. There's never really been such a position or mafioso wielding that kind of power here in the U.S. I suppose one could argue Giuseppe Morello in the early 20th century, or Salvatore Maranzano for a brief period before he was killed, but even those are a stretch. The closest thing to that was Toto Riina in Sicily. Gambino was, at most, the first among equals. I really do believe the Gambinos made more money though. I've neve seems anywhere that the Genovese's were more powerful and richer than the Gambino's. You should read more. In 1990, one FBI official (Richard Ross) said, "You keep hearing all this crap about Gotti being the boss of the bosses, but the Genovese have always been the country's most powerful family." In 1994, in his testimony in a case against the Mason Tenders Union, former Lucchese acting boss Al D'Arco said, "I have always considered the Genovese Family to be the most powerful LCN family in the United States." A contributor Jerry Capeci used in his old Gang Land News articles back in the day, who answered questions under "Ask Andy," said "The Genovese family has probably been the most powerful La Cosa Nostra family of the last hundred years." In 2000, while talking about the Commission Case, former NY federal prosecutor Michael Chertoff said, "The Genovese family, I think, in many ways was the most powerful family in the country in terms of it's domination and exploitation of labor unions and legitimate businesses." In Selwyn Raab's book 2006 book Five Families, on page 315, he writes that the Genovese family were believed to be "more affluent" than the Gambinos. It's the Genovese family that has always been referred to as the "Ivy League of the Underworld, the "Rolls Royce of Organized Crime," and who one law enforcement official said had "more or less invented labor racketeering." Again, while a good argument can be made that the Gambinos rivaled the Genovese for about 35 years (from the late 1950's to early 1990's), there is really little to no evidence that they ever supplanted them.
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Re: How do we know the Genovese are so powerful?
[Re: Revis_Knicks]
#737902
09/01/13 06:50 PM
09/01/13 06:50 PM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,809 Scotland
Camarel
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,809
Scotland
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Well, boss of all bosses in my opinion doesn't necessarily mean that you control every single boss in this case. Luciano made sure there would be nobody who actually controlled every boss. But lucky was boss of all bosses. The title was still there but the definition was basically changed. But it means you are recognized as the most powerful boss. You are the most respected boss. No boss does anything in your territory without your blessing. I think the lucchese's and Genovese's would be more frightened of the repercussions of moving in on gambino territory than the Gambino's would be if they moved in on their territory. And I would take Phil Leonetti's word being that he was a high ranking member in the mob. I think he would know which family is the most powerful at that time. So a philly guys quote holds more weight than the acting boss of a NY familly  .
Last edited by Camarel; 09/01/13 06:52 PM.
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Re: How do we know the Genovese are so powerful?
[Re: PP]
#737905
09/01/13 07:03 PM
09/01/13 07:03 PM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
IvyLeague
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
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You seem very intent on convincing me that the Genovese's are the richest and most powerful. And that's fine I respect your persistency. But those quotes are all cherry picked. I bet for every quote you find someone say the Genovese's are the most powerful you'll find one that says the Gambino's are the most powerful. The Genovese's knew they couldn't take on the Gambinos by themselves when Gotti was boss that's why they teamed up with the lucchese's. And that wasn't even during the Gambino family's prime. Let me take a quote out of Phil Leonetti's book, "At that time, the Gambino's were the most powerful family in La Cosa Nostra and Carlo Gambino, who was known as Don Carlo, was the il capo di tutti capi, the boss of all bosses, who sat at the head of the commission". Direct quote from Phil Leonetti in his book, "Mafia Prince". And you seem very intent on clinging to your preconceived notions, no matter what is put in front of you. You can believe whatever you want. I just think you've read the same superficial hype regarding the Gambinos without really looking deeper into things. The fact that you think there has ever been a "boss of bosses" shows as much. Luciano created the Commission, in part, so there wouldn't be that very thing. There can certainly be a single most powerful or influential boss. And Gambino was that at one time. But that doesn't mean he was the boss of the other bosses or had the kind of power where that title wold be in any way fitting. Nor did him being the top boss mean his family was automatically the most powerful. Let's not forget that Massino chaired the Commission meeting back in 2000 (Chin, Gotti, Amuso, and Persico were in prison) but nobody is going to argue that automatically meant the Bonannos were the top family. The Genovese's knew they couldn't take on the Gambinos by themselves when Gotti was boss that's why they teamed up with the lucchese's. And that wasn't even during the Gambino family's prime. Chin farmed out the hit to Casso because it was smart to keep things at arm's length. It was the Gambinos who didn't respond even after they had good reason to believe Chin was behind the DeCicco car bombing. The Gambino crime family was more powerful and wealthier than the Genovese's during their prime from what I always hear. I think the Genovese's are only known as the "Ivy league" because Luciano was the founder of them and he is a legendary figure. I wouldn't say everyone else outside of gigante was a great boss. None of their bosses knew how to stay out of prison. None of their bosses were ever as effective as Carlo was in terms of staying out of jail and wielding so much power. They never really had a boss as great as carlo was. Chin was never the boss that carlo was. One got convicted and the other didn't. Not that that necessarily makes someone a better boss but it helps. But maybe I should've said head of the commission if that makes you feel better. The definition of boss of all bosses is obviously different to everyone else in the mob when they call carlo and lucky boss of all bosses. You keep talking about what you "always hear." I read the same stuff when I first started reading books on the mob. And there's probably more books on the Gambinos, particularly because of Gotti, than any other family (except maybe Chicago because of Capone, etc.) But once you study things more in depth, you get a different picture. The Genovese family has been referred to the "Ivy League" and "Rolls Royce" of the mob by law enforcement because they've always been the most sophisticated family. The smartest, shrewdest, and most disciplined. You can talk about Carlo on an individual basis all you want, but the Genovese family has always had a "deeper bench," as one FBI official put it. The Genovese family started out as the most powerful, originating with Morello, then Masseria, and later led by Luciano. The question is, how and when exactly did the Gambinos supplant them as the top family? You and some others may say when Carlo took over or during his reign at some point. But how did that, in itself, make the Gambinos stronger? This is where we go back to what I was talking about before - the idea that Gambino was the "boss of bosses" while the Genovese suffered from lack of leadership. And neither was true. So, I ask again, how did the Gambinos supplant the Genovese? It was still the Genovese family that represented several east coast families on the Commission. It was the Genovese that had more of a national presence. The Gambinos rivaled the Genovese in various NY industries but the Genovese always had more labor union clout. Not to mention political clout. And it seems the Genovese always had the largest gambling and loansharking operations.
Last edited by IvyLeague; 09/01/13 07:06 PM.
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