Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
Originally Posted By: Lilo
My opinion is that just as Eisenhower warned many years ago, there is a military-industrial complex that has taken a great deal of power away from the people and their elected representatives.

I also think that Americans across the political spectrum are horribly blase about the Bill of Rights in toto. People just don't care about civil liberties. Were the 4th Amendment to be proposed today it would not pass.

Interersting, Lilo. I agree for the most part (more about the most part and my defense of the President in a minute). Mike Lupica wrote an interesting piece just yesterday about how the war on privacy is all but lost. I encourage you to read it: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national...ticle-1.1365660

Now, in defense of the President (not just this President, but ANY incoming President), I'll play Devil's Advocate. Isn't it entirely possible that the President didn't know just what kind of evil he was up against UNTIL he took office? I think it was just too easy to blame Bush for everything because, let's face it, Bush comes off as such a simpleton. But we're still waterboarding, aren't we? We're still using the Patriot Act, aren't we? We're still doing A LOT of things, aren't we?

Coming into office in January of 2009, it was just too damn easy for Obama to blame Bush for such things because he just didn't know the extent of the evil these religious terrorists were involved in. Long story short, he just didn't know what he was up against. Now he knows better. Now don't get me wrong, I still think Bush is/was at least partially retarded. But there's no doubt in my mind that history will vindicate him as far as some of these charges go. And the bottom line is, our guy, Obama, is now employing some of the very same tactics.

We can't have it both ways. We can't blame Bush for the Patriot Act, but then say, Well, Bush's guy wrote it, so that takes Obama off the hook. If he uses it he's just as responsible. Maybe even moreso because he's a liberal who's fucking with privacy rights. And that's tantamount to a righty selling out on gun control. It's like our friend Don Tomasso posted just the other day. Something like, "If Bush did this his hair would be on fire." I give him A LOT of credit for admitting as much.


Oh absolutely PB. I don't doubt that this President, any President knows things I'll never know and wouldn't want to know. But I don't give Obama a pass on this. I don't give any President a pass on it. The bad thing from my pov is that it may well be legal. We don't know. But I just don't see how we can square the circle between the Fourth Amendment, which generally requires particularized suspicion and a warrant, and a program which can read what I'm typing right now and/or know who I'm talking to and where I am at pretty much all times.

I think this doesn't easily break down among right-left Republican or Democrat lines. Feinstein for example is an enthusiastic supporter. Rand Paul isn't. I find it interesting that some people who would never support expanded background checks for gun purchases say that if you have nothing to hide you should not be worried by programs like this. On the other side some left wing people who would and did yelp and scream "Nazi", "Orwell" "Big Brother" at Bush over these things have suddenly discovered the importance of a President who keeps us safe. lol

I may well be naive and I am certainly no legal expert like some on the board. But I just can't abide with a program that monitors everyone. I was against them under Bush and Obama. Chase the bad guys, fine. Anything else, ehh.... panic

"When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives."
Winter is Coming

Now this is the Law of the Jungle—as old and as true as the sky; And the wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the wolf that shall break it must die.
As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk, the Law runneth forward and back; For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.