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Re: Most power boss today?
[Re: IvyLeague]
#721097
06/18/13 11:02 PM
06/18/13 11:02 PM
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Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 699
Illinois
Chicago
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 699
Illinois
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Ivy, I stumbled across this Blog a couple of months ago and was rereading some of the postings and arguments/ bad feelings between a couple of guys from Chicago and a few of the New York guys. First of all, I'd like to say that my Father was killed in 1985 by the Outfit and it practically destroyed my Family. It was horrible. He was shot in the parking lot of a restaurant. I am NOT a fan of the Outfit but know quite a bit about the past. My father was a made man and was direct with Sam Mooney. After Mooney was gone, My father was direct with Auippa and Cerone who were assholes. I do not know about the current state of the Outfit very much, but I have some doubts about Elmwoodparker's statements that the Outfit is all White Collar and legitimate. I doubt it. I think what he's talking about is the fact that a lot of the relatives of some of the older guys are runnug legitimate businesses and use the reputation of certain people to outgain their competition. I don't think it's all tied together into an Organized Crime thing the way you have talked about it in your past postings. I would be glad to intelligently discuss the Outfit of the past which would be from say 1960 to 1990. I'm really not sure about the present. I think it's on it's last leg to be honest. John DiFronzo doesn't care about the Outfit at all. He simply doesn't want to die in prison. I do not wish to divulge my name right now, but maybe later if we get to know each other a little better. Thank You.
Last edited by Chicago; 06/19/13 07:14 AM.
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Re: Most power boss today?
[Re: F_white]
#721098
06/18/13 11:26 PM
06/18/13 11:26 PM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
IvyLeague
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
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First, welcome.
Second, I've said before that there seems to be two parts of the modern day Outfit. The more "white collar" group seems to be the North Side crew. They appear to have more legit (or quasi-legit) interests, at least compared to the Melrose Park and South Side crews who do have some legit interests as well but are more involved in the standard "blue collar" street rackets. And there's been plenty of examples of this, despite elmwood's claim. It's why I've said guys like Marcello and Sarno were running the Outfit much more directly than DiFronzo may have been.
I've also made the point myself about friends and relatives of mob guys, past and present, using what connections they have in their businesses. Is this Outfit-connected? Sometimes. Other times, we just see examples of people who happen to have mob relatives who have assimilated into mainstream, legit society. An problem that has led to a lot of debates about the Outfit on these forums is people extending that "Outfit" circle out too much, even to the point where it seems they tie almost all crime and corruption in Chicago to the Outfit in some way.
Mods should mind their own business and leave poster's profile signatures alone.
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Re: Most power boss today?
[Re: IvyLeague]
#721100
06/18/13 11:51 PM
06/18/13 11:51 PM
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Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 699
Illinois
Chicago
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 699
Illinois
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Ivy, I agree with you. It does seem the Oufit is divided into two parts. The Southern part would be the 26th St. Crew, Cicero Crew & the Chicago Heights Crew ( I'm not sure if they are actually a crew anymore, during my father's day they most certainly were). The North would be Elmwood Park and Grand Ave. which is basically an extended part of Elmwood Park. The North basically has nothing to do with the South as far as I've seen and heard from others. I don't think there is much of any traditional rackets being run on the North side. The poker machine racket is on the South side. Sarno and Marcello are from the South side. Boy, the Outfit has sure changed from when I was growing up. I would agree that baised upon what you have stated and upon my own personal knowledge, The Outfit has about 10 more years before entire extinction. The New York 5 Families ( as bad of shape they are in) are ahead of the Chicago Outfit because of DiFronzo's pulling back from everything. It's almost like he may be a dry beefer. In other words, he may give information about the South side in order to be left alone. It's possible. He is a very crafty asshole like his mentor, Cerone. It was Carlisi and DiFronzo who carried out the orders from Auippa and Cerone to kill my father in 1985. Auippa and Cerone went to jail in 1986.
Last edited by Chicago; 06/19/13 02:44 PM.
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Re: Most power boss today?
[Re: Chicago]
#721105
06/19/13 12:36 AM
06/19/13 12:36 AM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
IvyLeague
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
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Ivy, I agree with you. It does seem the Oufit is divided into two parts. The Southern part would be the 26th St. Crew, Cicero Crew & the Chicago Heights Crew ( I'm not sure if they are actually a crew anymore, during my father's day they most certainly were). The North would be Elmwood Park and Grand Ave. which is basically an extended part of Elmwood Park. The North basically has nothing to do with the South as far as I've seen and heard from others. I don't think there is much of any traditional rackets being run on the North side. The poker machine racket is on the South side. Sarno and Marcello are from the South side. Boy, the Outfit has sure changed from when I was growing up. I would agree that baised upon what you have stated and upon my own personal knowledge, The Outfit has about 10 more years before entire extinction. The New York 5 Families ( as bad of shape they are in) are ahead of the Chicago Outfit because of DiFronzo's pulling back from everything. It's almost like he may be a dry beefer. In other words, he may give information about the South side in order to be left alone. It's possible. He is a very crafty asshole like his mentor, Cerone. It was Carlisi and DiFronzo who carried out the orders from Auippa and Cerone to kill my father in 1987. Auippa and Cerone went to jail in 1986. For the record, in 2007 the FBI said the Outfit had 4 remaining crews - North Side, Grand Avenue, Cicero, and the South Side. In 2011, one FBI official said the Outfit was "down to 2 or 3 crews." He didn't specify but I've wondered if those would be the the North Side, Cicero, and the South Side. As for DiFronzo, it's certainly interesting that he wasn't charged in the "Family Secrets" case. The feds have said they have two high-level Outfit members who have been giving info for 20-25+ years. I've wondered if DiFronzo and/or Andriacchi is one of them.
Mods should mind their own business and leave poster's profile signatures alone.
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Re: Most power boss today?
[Re: IvyLeague]
#721109
06/19/13 12:55 AM
06/19/13 12:55 AM
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Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 699
Illinois
Chicago
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 699
Illinois
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Yes Ivy, It's possible in 2011, whatever Report you are referring to combined Grand Ave. with Elmwood Park and that's why they said three instead of four. But, you know what, it's really 2, because the North Side really has nothing to do with the South Side. Any new men who were made in the last 10 years came from the South Side. DiFronzo could care less about adding new men. As far as DiFronzo is concerned, The reason why he wasn't charged in the Family Secrets Trial is because (from my humble understanding) they didn't have enough evidence. They couldn't convict him soley on the word of Nick Calabrese. They needed more corroborating evidence. They had more evidence besides the word of Calabrese to convict Marcello and Lombardo. Your thoughts?
Last edited by Chicago; 06/19/13 12:56 AM.
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Re: Most power boss today?
[Re: Chicago]
#721113
06/19/13 01:10 AM
06/19/13 01:10 AM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
IvyLeague
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
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Yes Ivy, It's possible in 2011, whatever Report you are referring to combined Grand Ave. with Elmwood Park and that's why they said three instead of four. But, you know what, it's really 2, because the North Side really has nothing to do with the South Side. Any new men who were made in the last 10 years came from the South Side. DiFronzo could care less about adding new men. As far as DiFronzo is concerned, The reason why he wasn't charged in the Family Secrets Trial is because (from my humble understanding) they didn't have enough evidence. They couldn't convict him soley on the word of Nick Calabrese. They needed more corroborating evidence. They had more evidence besides the word of Calabrese to convict Marcello and Lombardo. Your thoughts? Even if we put Family Secrets aside, it's interesting that neither DiFronzo or Andriacchi have been indicted in years. As for PM's, go up to the "My Stuff" tab above, click on it, and you'll see a drop down menu. Click on "Messages."
Mods should mind their own business and leave poster's profile signatures alone.
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Re: Most power boss today?
[Re: IvyLeague]
#721152
06/19/13 12:54 PM
06/19/13 12:54 PM
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,213
cookcounty
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,213
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In 20 yrs you will find out who runs the westside, then 5 years later it will come out that it was someone else.... Opinions will turn into fact, and most will be drawn to the wrong conclusions. Even if i wanted to i doubt i could explain what im trying to say here. Everyone knows whos number one on the street but does he the point guard or the coach? Thats why i always say Danny Leo was A acting boss, not The Acting boss. You really think 30 captains are gonna go kiss the ring at raos every two weeks? It seems to me that a ruling panel (which is essentially a group of acting bosses) has always been in place. And, at certain times, they will have one of them step up as the acting boss to run things day to day. But the ruling panel still has over all power. That appears to have been the case with Leo, who was on the ruling panel before he was identified as acting boss. All the legit things restaurants, car dealerships, construction companies, food lines, and things like that. Then all the other money from illegitimate things. He's probably behind the top 3 NYC guys but other than that no. I find it hard to believe that there's tons of guys in NYC worth over 30 million dollars. And skinny please just fuck off. All this may be true (though elmwoodpark is fantasizing about DiFronzo being immune from prosecution, etc.) but it's not reflective of his power as an LCN boss. The ultimate power a boss has is based on the strength of organization he's the boss of. And that's why DiFronzo, as rich as he may be personally, is going to be #6 at best. And that's assuming he's still the boss to begin with. crime in Chicago is second to none in the united states that really ain't a good comparison with the college football to pro football
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Re: Most power boss today?
[Re: cookcounty]
#721163
06/19/13 01:45 PM
06/19/13 01:45 PM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,809
Scotland
Camarel
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,809
Scotland
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In 20 yrs you will find out who runs the westside, then 5 years later it will come out that it was someone else.... Opinions will turn into fact, and most will be drawn to the wrong conclusions. Even if i wanted to i doubt i could explain what im trying to say here. Everyone knows whos number one on the street but does he the point guard or the coach? Thats why i always say Danny Leo was A acting boss, not The Acting boss. You really think 30 captains are gonna go kiss the ring at raos every two weeks? It seems to me that a ruling panel (which is essentially a group of acting bosses) has always been in place. And, at certain times, they will have one of them step up as the acting boss to run things day to day. But the ruling panel still has over all power. That appears to have been the case with Leo, who was on the ruling panel before he was identified as acting boss. All the legit things restaurants, car dealerships, construction companies, food lines, and things like that. Then all the other money from illegitimate things. He's probably behind the top 3 NYC guys but other than that no. I find it hard to believe that there's tons of guys in NYC worth over 30 million dollars. And skinny please just fuck off. All this may be true (though elmwoodpark is fantasizing about DiFronzo being immune from prosecution, etc.) but it's not reflective of his power as an LCN boss. The ultimate power a boss has is based on the strength of organization he's the boss of. And that's why DiFronzo, as rich as he may be personally, is going to be #6 at best. And that's assuming he's still the boss to begin with. crime in Chicago is second to none in the united states that really ain't a good comparison with the college football to pro football Chicago is not ranked in the 25 most dangerous cities (Crime Rate) in the us - http://www.businessinsider.com/the-25-most-dangerous-cities-in-america-2012-10?op=1 A few other cities in Illinois are though. Or the 10 deadliest cities in the Us (Murder Rate). - http://www.policymic.com/articles/22686/america-s-10-deadliest-cities-2012
Last edited by Camarel; 06/19/13 01:45 PM.
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Re: Most power boss today?
[Re: Camarel]
#721201
06/19/13 05:25 PM
06/19/13 05:25 PM
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,213
cookcounty
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,213
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In 20 yrs you will find out who runs the westside, then 5 years later it will come out that it was someone else.... Opinions will turn into fact, and most will be drawn to the wrong conclusions. Even if i wanted to i doubt i could explain what im trying to say here. Everyone knows whos number one on the street but does he the point guard or the coach? Thats why i always say Danny Leo was A acting boss, not The Acting boss. You really think 30 captains are gonna go kiss the ring at raos every two weeks? It seems to me that a ruling panel (which is essentially a group of acting bosses) has always been in place. And, at certain times, they will have one of them step up as the acting boss to run things day to day. But the ruling panel still has over all power. That appears to have been the case with Leo, who was on the ruling panel before he was identified as acting boss. All the legit things restaurants, car dealerships, construction companies, food lines, and things like that. Then all the other money from illegitimate things. He's probably behind the top 3 NYC guys but other than that no. I find it hard to believe that there's tons of guys in NYC worth over 30 million dollars. And skinny please just fuck off. All this may be true (though elmwoodpark is fantasizing about DiFronzo being immune from prosecution, etc.) but it's not reflective of his power as an LCN boss. The ultimate power a boss has is based on the strength of organization he's the boss of. And that's why DiFronzo, as rich as he may be personally, is going to be #6 at best. And that's assuming he's still the boss to begin with. crime in Chicago is second to none in the united states that really ain't a good comparison with the college football to pro football Chicago is not ranked in the 25 most dangerous cities (Crime Rate) in the us - http://www.businessinsider.com/the-25-most-dangerous-cities-in-america-2012-10?op=1 A few other cities in Illinois are though. Or the 10 deadliest cities in the Us (Murder Rate). - http://www.policymic.com/articles/22686/america-s-10-deadliest-cities-2012 here's the city of Chicago's stats broken down more thoroughly Chicago northside: 1.4 million people (36 murders) Chicago westside: 476,000 people (156 murders) 32.8 murder rate Chicago southside: 920,000 people (314 murders) 34.1 murder rate if the south and west sides were their own cities they'd be 6th & 9th in murder rates
Last edited by cookcounty; 06/19/13 05:29 PM.
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Re: Most power boss today?
[Re: Chicago]
#721215
06/19/13 06:51 PM
06/19/13 06:51 PM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
IvyLeague
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
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Ivy, it was around 1993 that DiFronzo started to withdraw. That was 20 years ago. It was right after some thing that happened with a San Diego Casino. Do you know what I'm referring to? Anyway, Since that time he has retreated. Also, Marcello and DiFronzo were never close. I remember hearing from one of the guys in the Elmwood Park Group who worked as a collector for Mikey Castaldo, that Elmwood Park (DiFronzo) doesn't want to eat with Cicero (Marcello).This was around 2002. This was right around the time Marcello got out of jail. All the Poker machines were run by Cicero. DiFronzo wanted nothing to do with it. I never saw one poker machine ever in Elmwood Park or any of the surrounding suburbs. They were in Melrose Park and south. Yeah, I'm familiar with the Rincon Indian casino case. If DiFronzo isn't one of those two high-level informants, and really did withdraw, it's strange that he would still be considered the boss for so long after that. Do you have any theories on who those two long time informants may be? I should add that I do agree about the North Side in general. The last bookmaking bust involving anyone associated with that crew was over a decade ago.
Mods should mind their own business and leave poster's profile signatures alone.
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Re: Most power boss today?
[Re: IvyLeague]
#721231
06/19/13 07:40 PM
06/19/13 07:40 PM
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Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 699
Illinois
Chicago
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 699
Illinois
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Ivy, to answer your question, Yes I do. I believe DiFronzo is a dry beefer. I believe he occasionally gives information to the Feds so they can make their occasional bust in return for retreating from the Outfit. Also, anyone close to DiFronzo (Elmwood Park & Grand Ave.) have been basically shelved from any activity. The men in Elmwood Park have to make money either working directly for the DiFronzo Brothers in their big Construction Company or they have their own legitimate business. Anyone who does otherwise is on their own and the DiFronzo Brothers have nothing to do with them. Rudy Fratto was involved in bid rigging with the McCormick Center. I doubt DiFronzo even knew what Fratto was doing. Why should he lose all his millions and die in jail in order to make a little more money? He is too smart for that. He really isn't the Boss of anything. He's like a retired General who only sees certain people and really has nothing to do with the war anymore. He didn't care if Marcello wanted to be the Boss. I wouldn't be surprised if he even gave the Feds information about Cicero's Poker Machine racket that was being run by Marcello's brother while Little Jimmy was in prison. Right after Marcello got out in 2002, all of sudden the poker machine business had problems. The Marcello Brothers owned the Company that manufactured the Machines, and then they placed them in their area and with the 26th St. Crew. The 26th Street Crew and anyone in the Chicago Heights area was partnered with Cicero. The North Side had really nothing to do with it from my understanding.
Last edited by Chicago; 06/19/13 07:43 PM.
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Re: Most power boss today?
[Re: Camarel]
#721307
06/19/13 10:09 PM
06/19/13 10:09 PM
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,213
cookcounty
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,213
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Not quite second to none then. Your right but Chicago is without doubt one of the worst cities for violent crime in the US. No big city really compares to Detroit or Flint though. that's only one aspect of crime (murders) Illinois last two governors went to prison so that shows the level of corruption trust me when I tell you that Chicago is the most corrupt city in the U.S that's not gloating because our taxes and gasoline prices are bullshit
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Re: Most power boss today?
[Re: cookcounty]
#721310
06/19/13 10:20 PM
06/19/13 10:20 PM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,809
Scotland
Camarel
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,809
Scotland
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Not quite second to none then. Your right but Chicago is without doubt one of the worst cities for violent crime in the US. No big city really compares to Detroit or Flint though. that's only one aspect of crime (murders) Illinois last two governors went to prison so that shows the level of corruption trust me when I tell you that Chicago is the most corrupt city in the U.S that's not gloating because our taxes and gasoline prices are bullshit You didn't say anything about corruption in the comment i responded to, you said crime in chicago is second to none when it isn't even in the top 20 in crime rate. I can agree that it's the most corrupt city, why on earth would you want to gloat about something like that anyway unless i read your last sentence wrong.
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Re: Most power boss today?
[Re: Camarel]
#721311
06/19/13 10:26 PM
06/19/13 10:26 PM
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,213
cookcounty
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,213
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Not quite second to none then. Your right but Chicago is without doubt one of the worst cities for violent crime in the US. No big city really compares to Detroit or Flint though. that's only one aspect of crime (murders) Illinois last two governors went to prison so that shows the level of corruption trust me when I tell you that Chicago is the most corrupt city in the U.S that's not gloating because our taxes and gasoline prices are bullshit You didn't say anything about corruption in the comment i responded to, you said crime in chicago is second to none when it isn't even in the top 20 in crime rate. I can agree that it's the most corrupt city, why on earth would you want to gloat about something like that anyway unless i read your last sentence wrong. corruption is crime......not bashing you some people think that living in grimey neighborhoods is fashionable
Last edited by cookcounty; 06/19/13 10:27 PM.
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Re: Most power boss today?
[Re: cookcounty]
#721312
06/19/13 10:30 PM
06/19/13 10:30 PM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,809
Scotland
Camarel
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,809
Scotland
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Not quite second to none then. Your right but Chicago is without doubt one of the worst cities for violent crime in the US. No big city really compares to Detroit or Flint though. that's only one aspect of crime (murders) Illinois last two governors went to prison so that shows the level of corruption trust me when I tell you that Chicago is the most corrupt city in the U.S that's not gloating because our taxes and gasoline prices are bullshit You didn't say anything about corruption in the comment i responded to, you said crime in chicago is second to none when it isn't even in the top 20 in crime rate. I can agree that it's the most corrupt city, why on earth would you want to gloat about something like that anyway unless i read your last sentence wrong. corruption is crime......not bashing you some people think that living in grimey neighborhoods is fashionable I know that but it still isn't number 1 in violent crime or overall crime.
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Re: Most power boss today?
[Re: cookcounty]
#721329
06/20/13 01:12 AM
06/20/13 01:12 AM
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Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 699
Illinois
Chicago
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 699
Illinois
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Cook County, Nobody is going to shoot anybody. DiFronzo is already out of it. He could step back in at any time but he will not do it. The future of the Outfit isn't great. The problem is that NOBODY FEARS the Outfit anymore. When I was growing up in River Forest years ago, The Outfit was extremely powerful and feared. I'm talking about in the 1960's when Cigar (Sam Giancana) was Boss and my father and the rest of Giancana's men pretty much ran the whole city. It is nothing like that anymore. The Outfit is so weak, they are afraid to kill anyone. Outright Beefers like Frank Calabrese Jr. have no fear of the Outfit and walk around free giving interviews! Never would have happened in the past. I predict, going by the standards of what a Crime Family is, as discussed on these Boards, that the Outfit will be pretty much extinct in the next 12 to 15 years. It basically will have had a 100 year run with the peak being in the 1960's and 1970's. I don't mean to upset anyone, but that is my humble opinion and I've seen it all for a long time.
Last edited by Chicago; 06/20/13 01:24 AM.
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Re: Most power boss today?
[Re: Chicago]
#721377
06/20/13 10:46 AM
06/20/13 10:46 AM
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 691
GaryMartin
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 691
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Chicago, I want to tread lightly here in order to avoid another "war of wods" on this topic.
I realize you may be too young to remember some of these things, but what are your thoughts/opinions, or what have you been told about these questions:
- what happened to cause Giancana's downfall?
- why was Cerone so disliked? He had all the traits to be be a very effective gangster, and he worked with the Taylor Sr. Crew. I understand your dislike for him, but apparently some others felt the same way. Did it have something to do with a rivalry bet. Grand Avenue and Taylor Street, or competition bet. Giancana and Accardo? Accardo was fond of Cerone and thought he would make a good boss.
- your thoughts about Accardo?
Thanks in advance for your input.
Last edited by GaryMartin; 06/20/13 11:30 AM.
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Re: Most power boss today?
[Re: GaryMartin]
#721391
06/20/13 11:44 AM
06/20/13 11:44 AM
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Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 699
Illinois
Chicago
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 699
Illinois
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Gary, 1) Cigar (Giancana) spent too much time away from Chicago. 2) He spent too much time with Phyllis McGuire. 3) He had trouble trusting anybody unless they grew up with him on Taylor St. 4) He viewed Accardo as his opponent rather than a partner.
Cerone was cheap and somewhat unfair with his own men. He one time tried to collect money from the widow of one of his men. When Sam heard about it, He embarrassed Cerone at the Armory Lounge in front of everyone saying out loud " I heard one of my Bosses doesn't make enough money gouging his own men that he has to now collect money from a fucking widow. " Cerone didn't belong to the Taylor St. Crew, He was the Boss of the Elmwood Park crew.
Accardo was a very smart and shrewd guy. He was very well respected across the Board and very close to Paul (Ricca). His relationship with Roemer, the Federal Agent, was a little too close for comfort.
Last edited by Chicago; 06/20/13 11:44 AM.
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