In the 60s to 1990 you hear gambinos were the top
I think further examination may show that gambinos were 2nd to the Genovese.
Opinions??
I do think gambinos gained alot of power when luchese died a lot of his rackets went to the gambinos

Except during Carlo's reign over the Gambino family, the Genoveses have always been the most powerful family.

Chicago dealt with the Genovese family. They were allies. They had their own personal arrangement that was understood and honored.
That should answer your question.

I think I've made my opinion well known on this issue. From the very beginning to today, the Genovese family has always been the top family in the U.S. I think the Gambinos rivaled them in many ways from the late 1950's to the early 1990's, but never surpassed them, especially on a national level. I also think much of the thinking about the Gambinos surpassing the Genovese during Carlo's reign stems from the inaccurate nation that the Genovese suffered from weak leadership during some of those years, when that really wasn't the case.

I should add that, although I personally go back and forth on the issue, one could make a good argument that the Chicago Outfit at it's peak rivaled (but never surpassed) the Genovese family in many ways. Though I think it would have much less to do with casinos or other gambling interests in exotic locations but more to do with the Outfit's political and police clout within Chicago, as well as it's extraordinary influence in the Teamsters, Laborers, and Hotel Employees unions on a national level. Also the fact that it was the sole family in Chicago and represented the families west of the city on the Commission.

Agreed 100%. Also, the alliance between the Genovese Family and the Outfit gave the Genovese Family an edge over The Gambinos and the other 3 N.Y. Families.
If push came to shove, the Genovese Family had a very powerful ally in Chicago.

Obviously, I have no proof, but I think you guys are dead wrong. up until Castellano was whacked the Gambino's had hundreds and hundreds of soldiers, over 2 dozen capo's and literally 1,000's of associates across many states like Florida, New Jersey and Connecticut.

The had a huge presence in trucking, the garment district, unions, construction, cement, produce, meat producers and I'm sure drugs, extortion, gambling and loan sharking.

I think overall this forum has a slight bias and infatuation with the Westside and that's OK, I've learned a lot about them being on here.

You could be right as the Gambinos were a powerhouse up until the 90s.

I think where the West side maybe out ranked the Gambinos was on the national union stage . They also seemed to have bigger traditional rackets in gambling and policy

The Gambinos had huge heroin operations though and ruled the garment center with the Luchesse .

Both controlled waste management in NYC and I'm talking total domination over every business in the entire city. It's still hard to fathom how these guys found a way to extort every single business in NYC ( JP Morgan, Chase , Goldman , the freaking NYSE all the way down to every little borgata ). The amount of $ Initially garbage must have brought into the Genovesse and Gambino familiar must have been staggering . My guess is $50-$70M a year. Not to mention the mob ran all the vending machine business in these buildings, god only knows what that brought it . Then the gas scam where the families were getting $7m a year for doing nothing , and this scam got 50x bigger once they took over the scam.

Picking one over the other is probably just nit picking , both had upwards of 500 members at their heights .

Never the Largest or strongest Genovese family all day very day

It's pretty tough to say who was the most powerful family in the 60's and 70's.

I think when Gambino died in 1976 he was the wealthiest LCN boss ever up to that point. But the Genovese family have always been a powerhouse from the very beginning.

Again it's just my opinion, but i think after Lucchese died in 1967 and up to his own death in 1976 that Carlo Gambino and his crime family were the top family in NYC. After Castellano took over i still think the Gambino's might of had the edge for a couple years but then i think the 2 families were pretty equal with the Genovese definitely pulling away from the pack after Gotti took Big Paul out. But thats just my opinion, who really knows.

Under Carlo the Gambinos were top IMO. Under Paulie they were probably on par, then when Gotti took over the Westside were certainly top.

Bt then you could say that Carlo had tremendous influence over the Lucchese and Colombo familes. And he was close to Bruno and Trafficante.

The genovese family was more powerful because of Chicago? That's ridiculous. The westside has always been the most powerful from Joe The boss until today. More diversified, bigger...
Ask yourself which family has withstood time and indictments the best to remain a coherent entity even today.
Chicago doesn't even enter the equation.

We were talking about the alliance between the Genovese Family and the Outfit YEARS AGO, NOT NOW. They had a slight edge because Chicago always voted WITH THEM on the Commission. Plus, they still had a minor interest in Las Vegas along with Chicago who had the major interest there.

Gotti took over an organization that had about 250 made members, so not really "hundreds and hundreds." But it was the largest family at the time. Associate figures are going to vary. A more conservative FBI figure put the family's associates at the time at 600. But there have been others that were much more. If I remember right, the number of captains at the time were in the 20's but not over two dozen.



If you were to go back 5 years ago on these forums, there was still a widespread opinion that the Gambinos had always been the top family. It's what many read in various books. However, once people get past a lot of the media flash around that family, the see the Genovese family has been the top family down through the years.

This isn't to minimize the Gambinos. As I've repeatedly said, through Gambino's, Castellano's, and Gotti's reign and into the early 1990's, the Gambinos rivaled the Genovese in many ways. Even today, while most of it's operations are in New York, the Gambinos still maintain a presence in New Jersey, Connecticut, and Florida and remain a strong #2.



In New York City--a $1.5 billion rubbish market in which 300 trash haulers serve 250,000 businesses--a customer-allocation scheme has resulted in overcharging by more than 40%, or $600 million annually. The Mafia's rake-off: at least 10%, or $60 million a year; prosecutors say it could be twice that.

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/1996/01/15/207168/

As far as garbage goes.... Benny Villani, Angelo Ponte and Carmine Franco. Enough said????

In 1985 when Gotti took over, The Gambinos reportedly had 24 active street crews headed by Capos. By 1992, it was 20 active street crews. I think now estimates are pegged at 10-15. What was the cap on Made members? 200 or 250? Back until the 1990s, these numbers were set.

Assuming each crew had 9 or 10 guys, the 200 number for 1985 would be accurate as very few guys were in prison for extended periods of time back then. Now, it makes sense that they have 200 made guys, but with so many in prison, the 9 or 10 guys per street crew on the street is probably accurate.

Through the 1960s and 70s it was Chicago and the Genovese who collaborated to control the national unions.

An ex-detective who spoke at my school 2 years ago said getting Angelo Ponte in that garbage sting instead of his brother was like going after members of Bergen Hunt and Fish club and after a long operation, busting the guy who swept the floors while letting John Gotti go free. He said this during of the record discussion with some of us later. According to him, Joe Ponte was Mafia member, Angelo Ponte was only an associate though his brother, and got caught up in sting he had little part in. He also said Barretti (sp?) carting was worst, that they were total thugs.

In my opinion I think many people think the Gambino family was the most powerful and biggest due to the Gotti TV era. Its that time when all the books came out on the Gambino crime family and Gotti. Not to much mention of the Genovese family which leaves me to believe do to the popularity of Gotti people recognize the Gambino name more. Dont get me wrong Carlo Gambino was an amazing boss in my opinion and had a powerful family but I feel the Genovese family edge out the Gambino's. If the question was who was the most popular family then I would say Gambino.

Jace there are tons of connected carting companies.. I was really just pointing out some main front guys... even tho franco was kicked out of the industry, he turned from a front guy to that crews point guy from garbage.

I know Skinny, I was not criticizing your post, just commenting on Angelo Ponte and what I had heard about him.

According to the FBI the Gambinos had 300 made members in the late 1980s.

That's an army for sure...

Don't forget the at least 2000 associates or more back in the days. Associates are just as important to any family as its soldiers. A mafia family doesn't have to have many made members. When it has a good amount of important associates, it can come a long way.

One 1988 report cited 300 members. A 1989 report cited 250 members. And various articles throughout the 1980's cited both.