I am a new member of only a few weeks but I am curious to a few things. I am not from Chicago nor have I ever been there but to me it seems like every one is so obsess with the Outfit and how many made men are in it. Why is that? Base on my knowledge what made these families so great in the days was that no one knew the numbers and that was a strength in its self. Next is as we all know when you think of the Outfit Capone comes to mind. I always wonder why Capone over shadows Johnny Torrio. Torrio left Capone the Outfit am I right? He also was a huge influence with Luciano as well. Why doesnt Torrio ever get a mention? He to me was a huge influence on the Mafia. Like I said I am new and just curious to this.

Torrio is by every serious crime historian reckognized as one of the greatest masterminds in the history of the underworld. So no, I wouldnt say hes overlooked.

Perhaps his later history (1925-57) is a bit marginalized, but in general he is very well "known".

I agree with you Goldhawkroad I meant buy non historians people in general who just know the Capone name the way baseball fans know the Yankees. Where is Torrio credit?

In almost every book, or story, on Capone (and there are many) Torrio is mentioned.

Theamericangangster: why is Gotti more known to the public than the Chin? Why do people think of Joe instead of Larry (the latter one clearly the brainier) when they hear the name "Gallo "? Why is Al Capone more known to the public than Johnny Torrio?

Because these people were extrovert, larger than life caracters with flamboyant lifestyles that made them famous in all kinds of levels in society. For example, I think all of them at some point were in Life Magazine, the Gallos even having a few of their boys posing on a street corner.

Nobody knows Torrio today, probably just as he wanted it. He was all business. Just look at the terrible casting regarding him in Boardwalk Empire. Nobody knows him, but people with knowledge knows how to credit him right: a criminal mastermind who laid the foundation for Al Capone.

Probably a combination of a few things. The Outfit under Capone was probably too successful for its own good; as prohibition went on after Torrio got out the Outfit became a ludicrously large, wealthy and consequently more visible organization... I imagine Capone just got far more press, for one, that Torrio ever did. He also essentially saw it through to the end (or at least his end), whereas Torrio abdicated.

Secondly Capone just looked the part, which probably resulted in a lot of the press coverage too. He was a big fatso in expensive clothes with a cigar always hanging out of his mouth; it probably sold papers.

But realistically, I think the simple answer is just that Torrio left before the whole thing kind of spun out of control in terms of size, press, etc.

With Capone it was recommended that he become friendlier to the press. Before that he didn't give interviews and he complained about it. After that he not only gave interviews but did certain things for PR, like creating the first soup kitchen. As for living large, it was common for wealthy gangsters to dress better. Nothing unusual about that.

Torrio left after he was shot, and I'm sure his wife had the most influence on him leaving. He and Anna were very close and after he left Chicago they traveled around the world. As for his influence on Lucky Luciano, the only source for that is the book "The Last Testament of Lucky Luciano." I went through great lengths to show that book is a hoax and nothing in it is credible.

Its established torrio was close to the genovese bosses, to what extent who knows, and capone had thoughts of controlling the media and having them work for him, he found out latet the media can't be controlled, when he git out of prison he went back to keeping his mouth shut

Who established that Torrio was close to the Genovese bosses?

He was, after his retirement he went to new york and advised the genovese, every story I read about him says that, don't try to re create the wheel here

Very helpfull information

That's the point. One book copies another book, and that book copies another book. If the books are inaccurate they recreated the wheel. Are you more interested in what really happened or in what books made up?

There is no proof that Torrio was an advisor to the Genovese. I'm sure some gangsters talked to him once in a while when he returned to NY, but to call him an advisor may be reading too much into it. At that time, the Genovese were flush with strong leaders like Vito Genovese, Luciano, Costello, Adonis, Moretti, Alo and others. Why would they need Torrio? The story doesn't add up.

Agree that its not confirmed what role Torrio did play after his return to Brooklyn. But at the same time, you cant say 100 percent he was retired either. Thats why I said "perhaps marginalized" during these years.

Likely, he was some kind of senior adviser at least. Or maybe he was so much more.

At Kefauver Hearings:
Mr. Halley. Did you know Johnny Torrio ?
Mr. Costello. I met him once or twice.
..
Mr. Halley. Let me read you your conversation with Agent Sullivan in 1938
Q. Did you have any conversations with Torrio during the years 1932, 1933, and 1934?
A. 1932, 1933, and 1934?
Q. Yes, or 1935?
A. I don't believe I saw Torrio three times in the last 7 years. I don't believe I have seen Torrio in the last 3 or 4 years.
I might have had some conversation with Torrio, met him casually.

-----

At these hearings there was a tendency to deny or understate any associations. He probably
had a few business dealings and maybe not an advisory role. Torrio seems to have retired after a stint in prison around 1941.

I don't know much about it, but it would hardly make sense for him to quit Chicago out of a sense of self preservation only to go back to the same life in NY. Not like they didn't have guns out there.

I've always taken that book with the lightest grain of salt and having very transparent personal motivations, but are you saying it was a complete hoax without any input from Luciano at all?

I think you've said before that you've published, is there anywhere I can read up on this? I'd be interested on what you've found.

Toddo, you missed the point...again. My point is that in almost any book (if not all indeed) where Al Capone´s life story is covered, Torrio is mentioned as the criminal mastermind he was. So Torrio IS given credit. That´s what I wanted to point out. Do you understand now?

No need to explain your self to me,wheres your self esteem?Yes we all know that Torrio is mentioned in every book,mostly general stuff,but not much of some inside infos on him cuz he was low key persona.The point was,by looking that geek smiley on your signature,we expected something more,maybe prefer a book or something,or an fbi file with some inside info on Johnny? .Do YOU understand now?...and again...very helpful info

If you would have read this thread from the top, you would have understood what my point was. No need for you to post an unnecessary and somewhat stupid hit and run comment. Or perhaps you did read it from the top but somehow the point escaped you. I don´t know. For your information, there are files on Torrio, there are old articles and newspaper clippings you can look up. If you are that interested, they are not hard to find, if you know where to look.

You seems to be obseessed with the smiley in my signature. Let me remind you that it is just a smiley. Nothing more, nothing less. There is really no need for you to jump up and down over it every time you see it. And believe me, I didn´t put it there for your excitement.

With that being said, I must ask you something. I´m not saying you do, so don´t get me wrong...but do you have a fucking cucumber up your ass? Or what is it that makes you so grouchy every time I post something?

Wow wow why flaming like this?Cucumber up my ass?Really dude?How old are you?50 right!?And whos grouchy about the smiley?Thats lame,i feel sorry for you,cheer up.I know your alone and have no1 around you,so why pickin up fights ova here?Why not make friends?As for the flaming thing ill let SC to handle that one.Back on topic......soooo as a "mob geek",most of your infos come from news paper clippings?

(Yawn) Whatever dude.

"YAWN"?????

thanks Faithful.