The problem I have is, the feds can get things right 99 times out of 100. But people will use the 1 time they got it wrong (like with Chin and Fat Tony) as a blanket excuse to question or disagree with the feds whenever they want. In fact, I can't count how many times I've seen people bring up that very example to justify themselves in doing so. If people have a solid, substantial reason to disagree with the feds on something, fine. But they usually don't.

Calling Ralph Natale boss of philly #2. Jack Garcia admitted in his testimony in the 2011 trial of ligambi that Natale wasn't boss and the feds got it wrong.

Natale was the boss. Merlino having more clout behind the scenes no more made him the official boss than it did Galante when Rastelli was in prison.

Listen to the tapes. GArcia was the governments star witness and said Merlino was the real boss. As an FBI agent I am sure he has access to the kind of intelligence that could be deemed worthy of respect.

Ivy, I agree with you. However, I wouldn't go 99%. No, realistically I would go 90 to 95%. The Feds in 2013 have it right 90 to 95% of the time.

Back 25 years ago they were at about 60%.
One of their big mistakes back in 1986 was saying Joe Ferriola was the Top Boss of the Outfit when it was Carlisi.

They're a lot better now. Their best source are wire taps. Sometimes informants outright lie or purposely exaggerate something to show they are telling the Feds something important.

I've listened to the tapes. It's Garcia's interpretation. He's coming from the standpoint that, whoever has the power, is really the boss. But that's not necessarily the case. Like I said, there was a time that Galante could have been called the de facto boss, while Rastelli was in prison. But Galante's ambition to take over didn't make him official boss. He didn't have the title. And neither did Merlino. And if you've read up on the Natale era, he was very much involved in running the family.



95% is fine. Or even 90% My point stands that people have very little ground to question the feds. And when I say that, I'm talking about their intelligence from the 1980's to the present. Prior to the 1980's, things were obviously more sketchy.

Yes, no question. I find it amusing when a couple of these fan boys come on here to root for the home team that they conveniently dismiss what the Feds say because it doesn't FIT
into their comfort zone.
Especially when we're talking about the Outfit. Some people just can't accept the fact that the Outfit is just a regular Mob Family in the bottom 5 of the 10 remaining Families.
They're noticeable diminish has been greater than any of the remaining 9 other Mafia Groups for the reasons I stated above.

Like I said, if somebody has a good reason to disagree with the feds, fine. Simply going on a whim, hunch, or speculation isn't a good reason.

It's very rare but sometimes I will disagree with the feds myself. One example is them calling DeLeo the acting boss of the Colombo family. Well, considering the function of an acting boss is to run the family day-to-day, which requires he be regularly present on the street, it's hard to see how DeLeo could have done that from Boston. True, he did do certain functions, like attend high-level meetings and making ceremonies, but if you look at the indictment itself, he was mostly just running his own little crew up north. So the feds giving him that label was a stretch.

Skinny...interesting to me what you said about Marino and Corozzo. Either way is the rising influence of all these guys from the sicilian faction starting to annoy the other factions/crews? I would think it would but i'm not there so i really can't say it does for sure....i just don't know. But what are you local guys hearing? Any rumblings of discontent?

Ivy, Your Points are solid. Noone can really refute them with any logic.

When I said 'stated above', I meant in the Mafia 2013 thread.
Anyway, I will reiterate it here:

1) Strawman Case 1985
2) RICO Prosecutions
3) DiFronzo & Lombardo retreatment
4) Attrition

Those are your basic reasons the Outfit went from being on the same level as any of the New York Families before 1985 to what THEY ARE NOW.

Because DiFronzo & Lombardo were convinced to retreat several years ago, that should give anyone with any common sense as to the power the Feds have today to come after you if they so desire.

I'm surprised you say you sometimes question the feds yourself. You seem to get angry when others do it, yet you now say sometimes you do it too?

I very, very rarely question the feds. I virtually never do. There have only been a handful of examples. It's not like the ones I'm talking about, who question the feds on a regular basis. Also, notice I laid out exactly why I questioned the feds about DeLeo and my doing so was based on a lot more than just speculation. I'm willing to bet that many of those who think John Gambino is the real boss do so for no other reason than he's got more name recognition than Dom Cefalu. It's the same people who were claiming Nick Corozzo was the real Gambino boss years ago, although he never was.

The Feds being human and external observers of the mob are fallible and make mistakes.

Compared to any other EXTERNAL perspective, theirs is by far the most accurate.

BUT. They ARE EXTERNAL observers and they do make mistakes.

If inside sources state X, Y and Z, they, imo CAN have as much credibility.

Just because the Feds say something DOESNT make it so. Neither does an 'inside' source.

Taking BOTH perspectives is more oft than not the correct option.

Wholesale believing one, to ignore the other is rather naive imo.

Is there a way we can program this forum to automatically generate Sonny's message above whenever these arguments arise to avoid threads getting derailed? Well said, Sonny.

it seems strange the tv and newspaper guys arnt following dom around asking dumb question or taking photos or filming him leaving his work or house or just at marco polo, like they did to all the other bosses of time. I mean he runs a mob of 200+ white men plus a shit load of associates in nyc. that's power. white men that run legit companies restaurants ect. that why the fbi is always going after the mafia there white guys who can blend in with non criminals regular people,unlike the latin kings or any Chicago gang. the fbi has been trailing the bonanno acting boss to all his meetings that's what happened with chilli and his friends violating parole. dom must do a good job insulating himself and some one made the point of bobby glasses having the consig job just to watch other a crew did you mean watch over all the queens guys, there like 3 crew I think. that's smart thou bobby manna was consig and he watched over all 4 or 5 new jersey crews smart.

Ciccio-enjoying the good convo buddy. For construction, the gambinos run the cement pouring on staten island. They do it thru laborers 731 and masons 780. (that i can remember, there are more). I cant see a captain in the same family struggling to get by in that industry. Machines? I can guess two locations, pretty obvious ones on 18th ave not far from each other, but not gonna put it up on an open forum. U probly know the two i mean anyways. I have heard pete is not a smart guy but i cant say for sure. Dont know about lanni except he runs td bets which is still up btw. Plus doesnt that crew run the big 18th avenue feast... What about the older guys in that crew? The one i remember reading about santo zito who owns a restaurant somewhere in bensonhurst. They are still into drugs... Dont know the names of the players they have in bk but there is more than one 18th ave connected guy in north jersey. (today not pizza connection era guys)... Saying dom was powerful then bc he was under is saying that jackie nose was a power and he was boss. That was a gotti picked administration. The biggest guy at that time was Jojo and he was #3. Dom at under means nothing to me bc he was picked by gotti. Gotti put pete as boss if that tells you anything of his quality decision making.

If u say u are close to them, thats ok by me, im just saying what i know from guys i talk to.. ive never met him. i wouldnt know him if i saw him. From the ppl i talk to john gambino calls the shots, and is currently the heaviest guy on the street. And for ivy, 2-3 years ago it was nicky. He still would be if his crew didnt get so hammered. It shows u how influential he is FROM PRISON, when he chooses the last 3 consiglieris.

GC-from my understanding they have enough going on that they arent stealing from other crews. Plus a lot of this zip vs american shit is overhyped. From personal experience i know guys straight of the boat come to stay with their cousins, after a few weeks hanging out they are part of the guys, its not the 50s anymore.

Baldo, i mean degenerates as in a lot of ppl here forget these guys are grown men who dont have jobs and sell dope for a living. Its not goodfellas where they get make up on and get dolled up and look nice and act like gentlemen... A good portion of these guys are just lazy trash. Obviously not a blanket statement, but still.

Well said. Skinny

Thank Skinny.

Those poker machines are where Joe Gambino fucked up years ago and worked directly with a rat. William Kane was Joe Gambino's partner in the video poker machines pre1988. He was a paid informant for the FBI.

Kane then got close to Tony Mannino and the Zito's and did heroin business with them and was one of the major informants in the Iron Tower heroin trials in the late 80's and 90's. Interesting part was that Joe Gambino never did drug business with Kane but Kane did with the Mannino's and Zito. Iganazio "Tony" Mannino was no joke, a very serious guy who was under his cousin Francesco "Ciccio" Gambino....another extremely serious guy who died a few years ago in prison. Domenico Mannino was another very serious guy and was a major shot caller for the zips along with Ciccio in south jersey and the philly area. They all went down hard except for Domenico Mannino who to this day i'm pretty sure is still a fugitive and believed to be in south america from what i've heard. Domenico Mannino owned Mimo's Pizza. Who worked there? Benny Zito from the pizza connection (thats another crazy story).

About John Gambino, it really amazes me the difference in views on him. I have to admit i was kind of surprised by some of the comments making it sound like he's close to nothing these days. Some people think he's the man and others make it sound like he's going around collecting aluminum cans from trash cans. lol!

But again i'm not there... so i can't say. I do know he has had heart surgery both in the 1980's before he was locked up and again when he was doing his stretch. Couple heart attacks and 1 or 2 strokes he is supposed to have had in prison. Also broke his hip too and sued the BOP for 20 mil. Never heard what came of the lawsuit though.

Santo Zito is a victim , the heaviest guy in that family is Franky he passed John along time ago John is old greedy and paraliZed on 1 side of his body but he drives his Toyota Avalone like a champ ill give him credit.

A Toyota Avalone? Really? lol!

He's paralyzed on one side? That must suck. Strokes are really rough so i'll cut him some slack on the car. But he really should look into an upgrade from the Toyota.

John and joe Toyota Avalone
Lorenzo a 1995 blazer
Peter a 2000 s430 Benz. ( had a Camry before Benz)
Joe lanni a maxima
Yea John walks with a cane and can't move 1 side of his body I believe left side .

HAHAHAHAHA...!

That has to be the best giving a guy shit whilst complimenting him at the same comment I've ever seen!

Priceless.

As i read it i laughed at that one too.

Ciccio, please tell me Joe and John aren't sharing the one Toyota Avalone?

No they are not they have there own avalones ,
Lorenzo has the most beat up car tho

According to FBI statistics from 2002 throughout 2012 the Toyota has been a go to vehicle for both organized crime as well as 1st and 2nd generation Asians.

The fbi has statistics on what type of cars asians drive?

Lmao

I'm as inclined to listen to "inside sources" (those who have proved themselves over time) as much as the next person - as long as it doesn't conflict with what the feds say. That's what people don't notice about me. Other posters are claiming stuff all the time that I don't disagree with or even comment on because the feds haven't said anything about it one way or the other.



I imagine this is one area where, at least partially, we'll have to disagree. Up to that point, Peter Gotti still had the official title, despite being in prison, and Jackie D'Amico was the acting boss. I certainly wouldn't deny that Nick Corozzo was very influential in the family (he did almost replace Gotti as boss back in the late 1990's) but he was a captain and indicted as such in 2008. And I don't find it very likely, in this day and age, that Corozzo could be the real boss without the feds hearing about it.

Ivy not boss behind the scenes, just top guy in the family. Including peter gotti. My opinion is relatively similar to jg today. But he may very well be THE boss in my opinion. Just my thoughts, good day