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Michael had a point #734483
08/14/13 02:08 PM
08/14/13 02:08 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,721
AZ
Turnbull Offline OP
Turnbull  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,721
AZ
Michael’s quest for legitimacy is one of the defining themes of the Trilogy. We’ve discussed ad infinitum how his warped thinking led to his downfall. He sets the stage perfectly in New Hampshire, when he’s wooing Kay:

MICHAEL My father's no different than any other powerful man --(then, after Kay laughs) -- Any man who's responsible for other people. Like a senator or a president.

KAY You know how naive you sound?

MICHAEL Why?

KAY Senators and presidents don't have men killed...

MICHAEL Oh-- who's being naïve, Kay?

Michael had a strong point here, rooted in history: Politicians make the “rules and regulations” under which they operate—and they do it to advantage themselves. In the 19th Century, and into the 20th Century, it wasn’t illegal for most American politicians at every level to take bribes. Representative (and later President) James Garfield, and more than half the members of Congress, took bribes from Credit Mobilier, which was building the transcontinental railroad. NYC’s Boss Tweed took in $10 – $20 million a month in payoffs. The only “ethics” was that they were to vote for the person or corporation that paid the biggest bribe. The politicos could be damaged if their bribe-taking were exposed, but they wouldn’t go to prison. And, since all the other politicos were on the take, it was unlikely that one of their rivals would blow the whistle on them. The bribe-givers were and are “legitimate” businesses and individuals.

Through the 1960’s, it wasn’t against Senate rules for a Senator to be a partner in a law firm that did business with one of his committees. And, even now (I believe), a Representative who’s retiring from the House can keep for personal use any campaign funds he hasn’t spent.

As for politicians having men killed: In Vito’s time, governors regularly called out the National Guard to break strikes—often resulting in workers and their families being killed. The CIA under Eisenhower fomented deadly revolts against legitimately elected leaders in Guatemala and Iran to benefit United Fruit Company and British oil interests, respectively. And many thousands of US soldiers were killed in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan because a succession of Presidents couldn’t find a way to exit without “losing face”—and it wasn’t Uncle Sam’s face that needed saving, it was their own faces. You might argue that the politicians were elected, and Vito and Michael weren’t. But, no one elected politicians to steal, lie and aid and abet murder.

So, what was the difference? Michael’s hubris:

Vito was content to operate in the background, without publicity, paying his bribes and doing his dirty work out of the public eye. His low profile never jeopardized the politicians and judges he paid off; his crimes (including murder) never attracted attention to him or his organization. He was satisfied to run his own little world his way, revered by the Italians he helped, respected by the politicians with whom he worked out a mutually beneficial relationship. He didn't disturb their status quo.

But Michel created for himself a dangerously volatile mixture of lust for nationwide (then global) power, and an overarching, increasingly public, demand to be regarded as “legitimate.” Geary wanted Michael’s money, but he couldn’t tolerate Michael’s ultra-public displays—“…the phony way you try to pass yourselves off as real Americans…” Michael got in his face by wanting him to be at Anthony’s party to accept the donation to the state university—and thus help bestow “legitimacy” on Michael. The Vatican was happy with Michael’s bailout—but not with Michael's flaunting it (including inviting the press to his party), and schemed to get rid of him. Immobilaire may have been run by crooks, but they had an “ancient tradition”—and they didn’t want Michael draping himself with it to become “legitimate.”

Michael brought it all on himself by demanding to write his own rules instead of by finding a mutually acceptable quid pro quo within the rules made by men more powerful than he was--and who he needed.

Your views?


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Michael had a point [Re: Turnbull] #734490
08/14/13 03:07 PM
08/14/13 03:07 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,032
Texas
O
olivant Offline
olivant  Offline
O

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,032
Texas
TB, we have to consider Vito's and Michael's intent. That intent was to dominate, period. Kay stated it perfectly: "Reason backed up by murder." Neither of them had any affection for society's rules, laws, or an enhancement of the human condition.

We as a society heap a large measure of scorn upon those who depart from the rules and laws. We admonition and recriminate such departures because we generally adhere to the social contract.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Michael had a point [Re: Turnbull] #734531
08/14/13 05:44 PM
08/14/13 05:44 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,103
J
JCrusher Offline
Underboss
JCrusher  Offline
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Underboss
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,103
Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Michael’s quest for legitimacy is one of the defining themes of the Trilogy. We’ve discussed ad infinitum how his warped thinking led to his downfall. He sets the stage perfectly in New Hampshire, when he’s wooing Kay:

MICHAEL My father's no different than any other powerful man --(then, after Kay laughs) -- Any man who's responsible for other people. Like a senator or a president.

KAY You know how naive you sound?

MICHAEL Why?

KAY Senators and presidents don't have men killed...

MICHAEL Oh-- who's being naïve, Kay?

Michael had a strong point here, rooted in history: Politicians make the “rules and regulations” under which they operate—and they do it to advantage themselves. In the 19th Century, and into the 20th Century, it wasn’t illegal for most American politicians at every level to take bribes. Representative (and later President) James Garfield, and more than half the members of Congress, took bribes from Credit Mobilier, which was building the transcontinental railroad. NYC’s Boss Tweed took in $10 – $20 million a month in payoffs. The only “ethics” was that they were to vote for the person or corporation that paid the biggest bribe. The politicos could be damaged if their bribe-taking were exposed, but they wouldn’t go to prison. And, since all the other politicos were on the take, it was unlikely that one of their rivals would blow the whistle on them. The bribe-givers were and are “legitimate” businesses and individuals.

Through the 1960’s, it wasn’t against Senate rules for a Senator to be a partner in a law firm that did business with one of his committees. And, even now (I believe), a Representative who’s retiring from the House can keep for personal use any campaign funds he hasn’t spent.

As for politicians having men killed: In Vito’s time, governors regularly called out the National Guard to break strikes—often resulting in workers and their families being killed. The CIA under Eisenhower fomented deadly revolts against legitimately elected leaders in Guatemala and Iran to benefit United Fruit Company and British oil interests, respectively. And many thousands of US soldiers were killed in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan because a succession of Presidents couldn’t find a way to exit without “losing face”—and it wasn’t Uncle Sam’s face that needed saving, it was their own faces. You might argue that the politicians were elected, and Vito and Michael weren’t. But, no one elected politicians to steal, lie and aid and abet murder.

So, what was the difference? Michael’s hubris:

Vito was content to operate in the background, without publicity, paying his bribes and doing his dirty work out of the public eye. His low profile never jeopardized the politicians and judges he paid off; his crimes (including murder) never attracted attention to him or his organization. He was satisfied to run his own little world his way, revered by the Italians he helped, respected by the politicians with whom he worked out a mutually beneficial relationship. He didn't disturb their status quo.

But Michel created for himself a dangerously volatile mixture of lust for nationwide (then global) power, and an overarching, increasingly public, demand to be regarded as “legitimate.” Geary wanted Michael’s money, but he couldn’t tolerate Michael’s ultra-public displays—“…the phony way you try to pass yourselves off as real Americans…” Michael got in his face by wanting him to be at Anthony’s party to accept the donation to the state university—and thus help bestow “legitimacy” on Michael. The Vatican was happy with Michael’s bailout—but not with Michael's flaunting it (including inviting the press to his party), and schemed to get rid of him. Immobilaire may have been run by crooks, but they had an “ancient tradition”—and they didn’t want Michael draping himself with it to become “legitimate.”

Michael brought it all on himself by demanding to write his own rules instead of by finding a mutually acceptable quid pro quo within the rules made by men more powerful than he was--and who he needed.

Your views?


There is no question that Mike was intelligent. Its just a shame that he decided to go down a dark road. I dont feel bad for Mike because he had a choice to go straight but instead he wnated power and it cost him his humanity

Re: Michael had a point [Re: Turnbull] #734552
08/14/13 07:37 PM
08/14/13 07:37 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,531
L
Lou_Para Offline
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Lou_Para  Offline
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Underboss
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,531
In the sense that Kay meant it,Michael was full of B.S. Senators and presidents don't have men killed like the Corleones or the Mob in general. All of the examples you gave are dead on the money,but it's apples and oranges. No Presidential candidate is going to kill his rivals to get elected,no President is going to whack a Cabinet Member who shows disloyalty. If that were the case Michael would have a legit point.




Last edited by Lou_Para; 08/14/13 07:38 PM.
Re: Michael had a point [Re: Lou_Para] #734638
08/15/13 11:27 AM
08/15/13 11:27 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso Offline
Consigliere to the Stars
dontomasso  Offline
Consigliere to the Stars

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
TB as usual you raise an exceptionally interesting point. To this day presidents have men killed: to wit: Osama bin Laden and all the drone strikes. In addition. there are very few politicians who leave office with less money than they had when they came in, and the means by which most of them acquire wealth is sketchy to say the least. In that regard, therefore, what Michael said to Kay still stands. She was the naive one.

What Michael never got was the concept of nuance. Like in baseball, in the law there the written rules and the "unwritten rules." People who bend legal and ethical matters within the "unwritten rules" can get away with it whereas people who don't suffer the consequences. For example, Marco Rubio, the senator from Florida has never spent one day in his adult life in anything but public office, yet he has amassed great wealth as th result of being a "consultant" to various corporations, and the like, and no one bats an eye cause everyone does it. Jesse Jackson Jr., on the other hand, just lifted campaign funds from the till and used the money on himself.

I use this example to illustrate the point that Vito and Tom Hagen knew how to operate within the "unwritten rules" and escape the problems Michael encountered. Vito would never have done something like order the death of Hyman Roth or a mamber of his own family, nor would he have ever done such an "in your face" thing to a United States Senator in front of witnesses.

Vito killed when it was good business, and then he did not brag about it...people just "knew." Fanucci comes to mind. Michael handled Geary at the brother the way Vito would have...privately and with only Geary knowing in whose debt he was.

Michael on the other hand did not understand when to retreat. He was always on the attack. Always paranoid. Always wanting to kill people. For Vito, doing something like killing a producer's prized horse was enough to get what he wanted. Michael was not that clever.

To draw the baseball analogy to a logical conclusion, if Michael were a pitcher, and the "unwritten rules" called for him to hit a batter with a pitch, he would not go for the thigh, he'd go for the head, and then consider the umpire who threw him out of the game to be another "enemy" with whom to be dealt.


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: Michael had a point [Re: dontomasso] #734649
08/15/13 12:28 PM
08/15/13 12:28 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,721
AZ
Turnbull Offline OP
Turnbull  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,721
AZ
Brilliant examples, dt! clap


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Michael had a point [Re: olivant] #738095
09/02/13 10:46 PM
09/02/13 10:46 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 79
Brazil
Marco Pentangeli Offline
Button
Marco Pentangeli  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 79
Brazil
the difference between Vito and Michael is that Michael was American at heart, that was what his quest for legitimacy was all about. He wanted to be part of legitimate America and not another greaseball operating in the shades. Then he was basically forced to succeed his father and went for a middle of the road approach and ultimately failed.

Last edited by Marco Pentangeli; 09/02/13 10:54 PM.

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