Not only are you just repeating yourself, you didn't answer my question. HOW did Gambino simply being a good boss, even the top boss, make his crime family the most powerful? You didn't answer that question because you can't. Well, nothing beyond reminding us again what a great boss Gambino was.

And, whether you realize it or not, you're the one basically drawing a parallel between Gambino and Massino. You said that Gambino was chairman of the Commission. And your entire argument seems to be that Gambino being the top boss meant his was the top family. Well, if that's the case, Massino chairing the Commission back in 2000 meant the Bonannos were the top family at the time. But does anyone really believe that?

Luciano and Genovese went to prison. Costello and Lombardo didn't. And Gigante lasted for years on the street before finally being convicted. You can't compare Gambino's reign, which was pre-RICO, to Chin's reign afterward. If Gambino hadn't died previously, he probably would have been convicted in the Commission case. And all this is not to overlook what I said about the organization not being dependent on a single guy. Even if the boss goes to prison, the family continues.



Where in Casso's book did he ever say that? You're starting with your own personal theory about the Gambinos not being "scared" and then claiming Casso said something he didn't in order to support that.

What I've always thought was interesting is how relatively little air time the Genovese get despite their large size. The only things talked about are Costello's trouble publically testifying in the 1950s (which didn't amount to much for the family as a whole), the failed hit on Costello (which didn't amount to much legally for the family, even though it caused Costello to resign), and finally the shenanigans of Vincent Gigante, which even some of these law enforcement officers seem to compliment him on. No huge fuckups or cowboys like the Colombo wars, Donnie Brasco, rat bosses, or the "We don't Gotti any brains" succession of bosses and acting bosses who try to kidnap radio talk show hosts and announce to the whole world that they are criminals. It's quite remarkable.

This topic shouldn't even be posted...it's embarrassing!

The Genovese and Chicago Families are the 2 most secretive, united, cunning, disiplined, Wiley and circumspect families from day 1.
Both have never had a attention seeking boss like gotti,both have greatly benefited from leadership that happens to be wealthy and in most cases don't want to be bosses but take the position because it's the best thing for the family. The families were the first to present facade heriarchys and upfront bosses to insulate the leadership from law enforcement scrutiny and it's something they have done for many, many years. Its no couincedence that both of these families most important turncoats we're soldiers(barone and Calabrese ) because no one above capo has ever flipped for these families.
The leaders for the most part are older and the links between the families is very real. QD Cirillo is very close to Chicago and Matassa Jr and Danny Pagano speak regularly as they are brother in laws and also both of them are Capos.

How do you know QD is close to Chicago? Sounds like BS to me

Forget about Giancana?

Ivy, most of these statements were made after John Gotii´s conviction. And they reflect only personal opinions. Please note the bolded words in some of the quotes. Same kind of statements can be found regarding John Gotti in and around the late 1980s when LE was hunting his ass. Back then, LE said that Gotti was the leader of the most powerful crime family in the US. I´m not disputing that the Genoveses are at this moment, and has been for the last 10-15 years, the most powerful Family. But the Gambinos have historically always had a larger amount of soldiers and a larger amount of captains. This is an important criteria to use when measuring power. Another important criteria to use is stability within a Family. Bosses who were able to keep themselves away from being indicted and convicted had it easier bringing stability and prosperity to his Family. Many Genovese bosses, as I mentioned in my earlier post, spent many years behind bars. So from a historically point of view, I´m not so sure that the Genoveses always has been the most powerful Family, something you seem to claim in your post.

Revis, Camarel and Ivy are right. The last boss of bosses was Maranzano. Since his death in 1931, no boss ever held that title again. Nor was there a boss who had the ambition of becoming one (in contrary to what you may be reading or hearing or seeing in the media). When the Commission was formed, it took over the duties the boss of bosses once had; to be the supreme decision maker in important major issues. When the Commission was formed those decisions were made within the group of bosses who sat on it. And there was always a voting involved. Carlo Gambino (or any other member of the Commission for that matter) did not personally appoint other bosses, murders in the other families did not happen solely to one Commission member´s will and command, no boss on the Commission meddled in the internal affairs of other Families without the backing of the Commission. These things, which had previously been the duties of the boss of bosses, would have never been accepted by the Commission members because it would have opposed the ultimate purpose of the creation of the Commission.

Even if one doesn't agree that the Genovese family has always been the strongest, there has really been no argument about it for 20 years now.



Yes, size is certainly on important factor. But you talk like the Gambinos were significantly larger than the Genovese. They weren't. If you look at the estimates it was perhaps a 20% difference at most.



You call Vincent Mangano, Albert Anastasia, and Paul Castellano being killed stability?

I think what makes this interesting is that during Gambino's reign as boss of his family, 1957 to 1976, we have a period of time for the Genoveses where we don't know a whole lot. Hell, Lombardo was a boss for more than ten years and we still don't know a lot more about him now than we did thirty years ago.

The Gambinos have almost always had more soldiers and made more money, but the Genoveses have traditionally controlled the best rackets, have had a tighter organizational structure and have arguably generated the most respect from the rest of the Five Families. None of the other families messed with the Genoveses. As someone stated earlier, Gotti knew Chin was behind the bombing that killed his underboss and someone with as much balls as John knew that retaliating against the Genoveses would bring hell down on the Gambinos.

And that's a big reason for the perceived dominance of the Gambinos at the time. The Genovese leadership was laying low and some mistook that for lack of leadership.



Even many of the reports years ago that claimed the Gambinos were the largest and most powerful said the Genovese were wealthier. And the Gambinos don't have more members now.

They were all killed from within. But that´s not the point. My point is that the claim "the Genovese Family has always been the most powerful family" certainly can be challenged.

30 years ago

The gambino family was the largest family.
The gambinos were stronger in garbage due to Bernie Adelstein, and local 813 and there control in queens, manhattan, Bronx and long island through jimmy brown.
They were number 1 in concrete through halloran, Sasso and 282.
The gambinos were stronger in porn through DB.
The gambinos were stronger in the garment center.
They were stronger in illegal narcotics


The Genovese were stronger in the laborers.
The Genovese were stronger in the carpenters.
The Genovese were strongest in the iron workers.
They were stronger in the roofers.
They were stronger in new jersey.
They were stronger in Connecticut and Springfield.
They Were stronger in the javits center.
They were stronger at the Fulton fish market.
They were stronger in the longshoremen and on the piers.
They were stronger in Florida through the ILA.
They were stronger in the mason tenders through jimmy messera.
They were stronger in gasoline.
They were stronger in the windows replacement scheme.
They were the stronger nationally.
They were the only family to have a messagario in they're administration to be the liaison to Chicago.



You do the math

Didn't part of the Gambino's power in the garment sector and elsewhere during Carlo's reign come from an alliance with the Lucchese family that started when his and Lucchese's kids got married?

Also, didn't the Genovese family have to approve the heads of some smaller families like the Patriarca family? Did the Gambino's have any such influence? I know that Gambino and Angelo Bruno were supposed to be close, but did they have the same kind of arrangement? And how much influence did the Gambino's have in Philadelphia before and after Bruno and Gambino were around? Wasn't Scarfo favored by the Genovese, or is that an oversimplification promoted by some mob documentaries?

Why so powerfull. 03 the bosses in the bronx called down a pair of shooters from a small massachusetts city 3 hours away to kill a nyc union official and after 9 shots the guy lived only reason the public knows is cause 1 shooter fliped in 2010 and gave up 2 or 3 other murders connected to that family. The rat anthony arillta didnt even no why the union guy was to be killed thats a powerfull organization.

I think the Gambino and Genovese families were pretty equal in garbage. They split the 5 NYC boroughs. The Gambinos had a presence on Long Island, though that was mainly the Luccheses turf. The Genovese had more of a presence in Westchester, Southwest Connecticut, and New Jersey. True, the Gambinos had IBT Local 813 but the Genovese family had 2 of the garbage associations like the Gambinos did.

The Gambinos certainly were always deeper into the drug and sex trade rackets. The Gambinos also had a piece of JFK. The Genovese always specialized more in labor rackets, which is one reason they've always been considered more sophisticated.



Yes.



The Genovese family traditionally represented the Buffalo, New England, New Jersey, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, and Detroit families on the Commission. They backed Todaro for boss in Buffalo, Bianco for boss in Boston, and Scarfo for boss in Philadelphia (due much to his ties to Bobby Manna). The Gambinos did also have strong ties to the New England, New Jersey, and Philadelphia families though.

From the 1940s until 1996 the gambinos were the top family in garbage in NYC and they split 50k a month with the luchese family on Long Island. The 2 Jimmy's were there respective generations most powerful garbage gangsters.
Robert Lucchese and Tommy gambino owned a couple companies together but tommy owned separate trucking companies in NY and NJ. The Gallos, Joe Gallo Sr and Jr were players in the garment center.
As far as JFK both families had guys that had truckers on record with wiseguys in both families. Guys like Tony Lee Guerrerri and Peter Defeo.

From the 50s until the 70s Philly was with the gambinos and even when for about 10yrs when scarfo was boss and they were under manna and the chin, guys like gravano and Nicky Russo and tony proto were close to Philly. Stanfa was backed by John gambino,cefalu,mannino etc etc

As far as actual made guys in the family , I beleive from the beginning until the late 60s the Genovese had more members and gambinos had more associates.
I guess in Carlos time the family expanded were once Vito Genovese went to jail, the weside was much more cautious in making people. And it was during this Time period which lasted maybe 20 or so years , the gambinos had actually had more made members than the Genovese family.

Other than Gambinos having control over IBT Local 813, I'm not sure what would make them stronger than the Genovese in garbage. They seemed to cover about equal ground. It certainly seems that way when you read Takedown.The Genovese controlled the garbage local in Jersey, as well as Laborers Local 958 (also a garbage local). Let's not forget about Allie Shades. He was the Genovese counterpart to Jimmy Brown. Failla controlled Queens County Trade Waste Association and the Trade Waste Removers of Greater New York. Malangone controlled the Kings County Trade Waste Association and the Greater New York Waste Paper Association.



For the record, Matty Ianneillo's crew also had interests in the garment center. And the last mob bust in the garment center, back in 1997, involved the Lucchese, Gambino, and Genovese families.

Gah

"Yes."

So can all the power they had during gambino's reign be attributed only to them, or would we have to adjust for the Lucchese factor when comparing them to the Genovese?

Is there any evidence for a Genovese alliance of this type? I know that Gigante had Casso try to kill gotti. Did that come from an alliance, or did they both just hate Gotti and his breach of protocol? Does anyone know how the Genovese dealt with Gotti's idiot son and brother in business dealings? I can't see such a smart secretive group wanting to get too close to someone who would kidnap a talk radio host. (Especially one who looks so gay.)

A related question to this threads topic might be: Have the Colombos always been the weakest?

"The Gambinos did also have strong ties to the New England, New Jersey, and Philadelphia families though."

Are they very connected to the mafia in Canada? Are the Genovese? I know that it was a Bonanno dominated area for a long time, but are they still top dog after the events of the past few years? Do you know if anyone in American LCN is connected to the 'Ndrangheta in Canada? Is any family outside of the five families connected to Canada or Italy at all?

I would say the Profacis/Colombos were probably equal to the Bonannos in the thirties to sixties but stronger than the Bonannos by the time the seventies and eighties rolled around. At that time, the Bonannos were pretty much frozen out of a lot of lucrative rackets which the Colombos, specifically Gerry Lang and Ralph Scopo with construction, shared a piece of with the other Five Families.

By the time Massino took over and the Colombo war started the Bonannos had clearly surpassed the Colombos and arguably even the Luccheses.

Anyone know what his status his today?

Capo? Active?

He is still "only" in his seventies, a relatively ripe age for Genovese capos, so I would imagine he is still active in some capacity.

Under Gambino his family were stronger then the Genovese family, just slightly though I'd say. Under Castellano they were close but the edge goes to the Gambios, since Gotti the Genovese have been number 1, with the Gambinos a strong second amongst the 5 families.

I would say a fair way to classify the two would be to say that the Gambinos may have been the richest and the largest but the Genovese have always been the most respected and most influential, at least among the other crime families in the nation. One's definition of power may coincide with riches and strength while another's may reflect an organization's respect and influence.

Just my opinion but as far as Gambino goes i think after Lucchese died in 67 he was most definitely the first among equals. From 67 to 80 i think the Gambino's were the most influential family. That changed when Angelo Bruno was killed and the Gambino's lost his vote on the commission. Leonetti even said Tieri wanted Caponigro's territory but he also said he always suspected Gigante was more interested in getting his proxy in the top slot in philly so he could control their vote on the commission. After 1980 i think the Genovese regained their top spot with Gigante. But again it's just my opinion.

Personally, the main reason why I classify the Genoveses as being the most influential was that the other families would always use the Genoveses as their liaison with the Commission. Gambino may have been first among equals and maybe even Castellano and Gotti afterwards, but they were just individuals. For the most part, the Genoveses as a whole were looked at with more respect by the non-NY families.

But like you said, it's mainly just a matter of personal opinion.

Ok. So maranzano was the last boss of bosses I agree with that. I see what you guys mean by that now. But you say what I say is opinion when everything you say about the genovese is opinion as well. Just because its in quotes doesn't mean it's fact. Most aficionado's would say during their primes the Gambino's were the most powerful. And how can you say that they've never supplanted them? That's your OPINION. You don't know how much money the Genovese's had.

Maybe later I'll make a gambino family vs genovese family thread.