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Re: What would you do about Fredo?
[Re: olivant]
#741525
09/24/13 04:31 PM
09/24/13 04:31 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,694 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,694
AZ
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I've often said that Fredo's outburst in the boathouse proved not only that Fredo betrayed Michael, but that he also knew Pentangeli and survived and that the Senate lawyer, Questadt, belonged to Roth--it also showed the depths of his resentment of Michael--and the real possibility of an ongoing grudge that might have meant that Fredo would try again. That's why I believe Fredo had to be killed.
But, short of killing, Michael could have continued with the initial exile he decreed for Fredo, and had him watched very closely. That would have been suboptimal from Michael's viewpoint, IMO.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: What would you do about Fredo?
[Re: dontomasso]
#741532
09/24/13 05:24 PM
09/24/13 05:24 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773 Pittsburgh, PA
The Last Woltz
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773
Pittsburgh, PA
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I agree with both of Oli's posts.
Exile would have been a sufficient punishment.
Fredo not having access to the Family business would have made any future threat from him negligible.
As I've posted before, Michael's handling of Fredo - continuing to allow visits to the compound - demonstrates that he did not view Fredo as a threat.
"A man in my position cannot afford to be made to look ridiculous!"
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Re: What would you do about Fredo?
[Re: dontomasso]
#741536
09/24/13 05:34 PM
09/24/13 05:34 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 385 Tampa, FL
waynethegame
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 385
Tampa, FL
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I don't think that exile would have been enough, only because of the outburst in the boathouse. As Turnbull said, the boathouse scene confirmed that not only did Fredo know, but he also had resentment over being "passed over". IMO the resentment is what did him in, not the act of treachery in and of itself, because the resentment showed that he would never be happy.
Let's see that he's exiled and cut off from all the family business. Nobody directly in the Family deals with him. He's given some "Mickey Mouse nightclub" to manage to earn a living, and told pretty much to never contact anyone, least of all Michael. Who's to say that some other conniving gangster wouldn't approach Fredo down the road with another deal and promise him something of his own? Who's to say he wouldn't take that offer, either growing the balls to try and off Michael himself (not likely, but still), or snitching to the police, or giving any information at all that could be of some possible use against Michael and the Corleone Family, even if it's outdated.
Fredo HAD to die, because he showed that he would never be happy unless he was the Don, and that meant he could always face the temptation of yet another betrayal because he would always resent the fact that his "kid brother" was made head of the Family.
Wayne
"Finance is a gun. Politics is knowing when to pull the trigger." Don Lucchesi
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Re: What would you do about Fredo?
[Re: dontomasso]
#741562
09/24/13 09:21 PM
09/24/13 09:21 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 486
LittleMan
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 486
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I don't think Fredo wanted Michael killed. Yes, he was somehow involved, but I he was double crossed.
So, while he's an idiot, I don't see the probability of Fredo having Mike killed a second time. That's because there wasn't a clear first time.
You shit-kicking, stinky, horse-manure-smelling motherfucker you! If you ever get out of line over there again, I'll smash your fucking head so hard you won't be able to get that cowboy hat on. You hear me? Fucking hick. -Nicky (Casino)
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Re: What would you do about Fredo?
[Re: waynethegame]
#741611
09/25/13 09:43 AM
09/25/13 09:43 AM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773 Pittsburgh, PA
The Last Woltz
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773
Pittsburgh, PA
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I don't think that exile would have been enough, only because of the outburst in the boathouse. As Turnbull said, the boathouse scene confirmed that not only did Fredo know, but he also had resentment over being "passed over". IMO the resentment is what did him in, not the act of treachery in and of itself, because the resentment showed that he would never be happy.
Let's see that he's exiled and cut off from all the family business. Nobody directly in the Family deals with him. He's given some "Mickey Mouse nightclub" to manage to earn a living, and told pretty much to never contact anyone, least of all Michael. Who's to say that some other conniving gangster wouldn't approach Fredo down the road with another deal and promise him something of his own? Who's to say he wouldn't take that offer, either growing the balls to try and off Michael himself (not likely, but still), or snitching to the police, or giving any information at all that could be of some possible use against Michael and the Corleone Family, even if it's outdated.
Fredo HAD to die, because he showed that he would never be happy unless he was the Don, and that meant he could always face the temptation of yet another betrayal because he would always resent the fact that his "kid brother" was made head of the Family. Who cares if Fredo is not happy? That doesn't make him a threat. Especially if he's exiled. He would have no information to provide and no physical way to get at Michael. Mafia Dons make people unhappy all the time. Where's the danger Fredo posed to Michael? Yes, he could have gone to the police. But it's not like Michael killed him right after the boathouse. He allowed Fredo to live as long as Mama was alive, which could have been years, and even permitted Fredo to visit the compound. None of the supposed dangers came to pass. If Michael at his most paranoid didn't consider Fredo a threat, it will take more than vague hypotheticals to make me believe he was.
"A man in my position cannot afford to be made to look ridiculous!"
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Re: What would you do about Fredo?
[Re: The Last Woltz]
#741629
09/25/13 10:48 AM
09/25/13 10:48 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468 With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso
OP
Consigliere to the Stars
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OP
Consigliere to the Stars

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
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While Fredo could have gone to law enforcement, he was so stupid and ill informed, he would have never stood up to cross examination, so I do not think he was a threat there. Nor was he a threat to Michael from the standpoint of other gangsters, or enemies. he was just too useless. The betrayal with Roth only because Roth may have thought Fredo was more in the loop than he really was. Once he was formally exiled he was useless. Imagine if he were around in III. Would the Catholic Church or the bankers in Immobiliare, or even Altobello have given a second thought to use Fredo to persuade Michael to take a softer negotiating position? I suppose once Vincent passed him over the old resentments could return ("Michael is sick, now its my turn....")
Actually the only value he had would have been while his mother was alive. Someone could have kidnapped him for ransom, and Michael would either have to pay or tell Mama why he wasn't paying.
Other than Michael's sheer desire for revenge, the only possible motive I see that justifies what he did to Fredo was to put out the perception to the world that if you mess with Michael you sleep with the fishes.
"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"
"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."
"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."
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Re: What would you do about Fredo?
[Re: waynethegame]
#741659
09/25/13 12:14 PM
09/25/13 12:14 PM
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,568
Sonny_Black
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,568
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I don't think that exile would have been enough, only because of the outburst in the boathouse. As Turnbull said, the boathouse scene confirmed that not only did Fredo know, but he also had resentment over being "passed over". IMO the resentment is what did him in, not the act of treachery in and of itself, because the resentment showed that he would never be happy.
Let's see that he's exiled and cut off from all the family business. Nobody directly in the Family deals with him. He's given some "Mickey Mouse nightclub" to manage to earn a living, and told pretty much to never contact anyone, least of all Michael. Who's to say that some other conniving gangster wouldn't approach Fredo down the road with another deal and promise him something of his own? Who's to say he wouldn't take that offer, either growing the balls to try and off Michael himself (not likely, but still), or snitching to the police, or giving any information at all that could be of some possible use against Michael and the Corleone Family, even if it's outdated.
Fredo HAD to die, because he showed that he would never be happy unless he was the Don, and that meant he could always face the temptation of yet another betrayal because he would always resent the fact that his "kid brother" was made head of the Family. Agreed.
"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
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Re: What would you do about Fredo?
[Re: Turnbull]
#741716
09/25/13 06:27 PM
09/25/13 06:27 PM
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Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 341
Iceman999
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 341
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I thought one of the most brilliant touches in II was how FFC and Puzo turned around Fredo's character. He was the stupe of stupes in GF, and started out that way in II. And yet he had enough balls to act out his resentment of his brother by selling out to Roth. And enough cunning to set up the Tahoe hit--and enough initiative to know that Pentangeli was alive and that Questadt belonged to Roth--long before Michael and Tom knew it. That made him a most dangerous character, IMO. I never saw any evidence that Fredo set up the Tahoe compound assassination attempt on Michael. Good question would be who left the curtains open to Michael's bedroom? Regarding Fredo, Michael could never let him live because to do so would have been a sign of weakness. And speaking of weakness, I think there's a good foreshadowing of Fredo's fate in the casino hotel scene where Michael tells Fredo never to sides against the Family again.
Last edited by Iceman999; 09/25/13 06:28 PM.
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Re: What would you do about Fredo?
[Re: dontomasso]
#741787
09/26/13 11:44 AM
09/26/13 11:44 AM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 486
LittleMan
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 486
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Other than Michael's sheer desire for revenge, the only possible motive I see that justifies what he did to Fredo was to put out the perception to the world that if you mess with Michael you sleep with the fishes.
Yep, this is what I always thought. Michael didn't feel Fredo was a threat- he didn't kill him to protect his own safety. He just wanted to send a message to others not to cross him..... he would even whack his own brother.
You shit-kicking, stinky, horse-manure-smelling motherfucker you! If you ever get out of line over there again, I'll smash your fucking head so hard you won't be able to get that cowboy hat on. You hear me? Fucking hick. -Nicky (Casino)
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Re: What would you do about Fredo?
[Re: dontomasso]
#741792
09/26/13 12:19 PM
09/26/13 12:19 PM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 171 pgh., pa
Guiseppe Petri
. 45 caliber
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. 45 caliber
Made Member
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 171
pgh., pa
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While we don't know who could have gotten into Mike's bedroom through all of the security inside the house, we do know of one person who definitely was in the bedroom - Anthony. I believe that when Frankie gave him that $100, he could have asked him to open the drapes to Mike's bedroom when he goes in. Anthony left that drawing on Mike's bed. There's too much coincidence for me that when Frankie meets the rosato's that he gets handed $100 bill outside the bar. He says something to the effect that he didn't like it. We do know that Danny Aiello ad-libbed " Michael Corleone says hello" when he is garroting him, Mike could have found out from Anthony that Frankie gave him the $100. Don't forget Frankie told Anthony " dont't tell your father about the bill, I don't want to embarrass him".
Guiseppe Petri
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Re: What would you do about Fredo?
[Re: mustachepete]
#741814
09/26/13 02:14 PM
09/26/13 02:14 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468 With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso
OP
Consigliere to the Stars
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OP
Consigliere to the Stars

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
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I think the ideal solution for the Fredo problem would have been commitment to a mental institution. Easy for someone like Michael to arrange in 1960.
Wow! never thought of that. He could have arranged all kinds of electroshock and then pushed the "poor Fredo" story on everyone. Connie and Kay would have bought it in a heartbeat, but Tom would know the truth.
"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"
"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."
"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."
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Re: What would you do about Fredo?
[Re: olivant]
#742563
10/02/13 10:42 AM
10/02/13 10:42 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468 With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso
OP
Consigliere to the Stars
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OP
Consigliere to the Stars

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
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In addition, why would Frankie trust a 7-8 year old boy? Because unlike Michael Frankie didn't understand anything about "big deals."
"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"
"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."
"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."
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