My only question with it is how Tom would know these details:
"Roth engineered it, Michael. He made Pentangeli think you hit him. Deliberately letting him get off alive."

Who in Roth's camp squealed?

Or did Tom have a mind for big deals and just figured it out on his own?

...or did Fredo tell him?

Something else people need to consider is well explained in the link below, i.e. there are no good answers and these were plot holes in an otherwise classic movie.

http://filmwad.com/three-nitpicky-and-ir...sor-5046-p.html

Glad this controversy is getting new attention.

Years ago, someone surfaced an earlier script in which Pentangeli was deliberately spared. It was one of many such plotlines ultimately either abandoned or left on the cutting room floor. I think FFC figured that it would have been too much of a stretch for Roth to have engineered that split-second rescue of Frankie. What's more, it was so much more satifying for Michael to have believed Frankie was dead.and then to discover that he survived--after he'd perjured himself.

"Michael Corleone says hello" might have been left over from the same scene shot under an earlier script. That's happened before. Years ago, some sharp-eyed poster noticed Questadt, the Senate lawyer, sitting behind Roth in Havana when the gringo pezzanovanti were meeting with Batista. I think he also found a script version in which Michael was to have met with Questadt in Havana. Obviously FFC abandoned that plot line. So, why was Questadt left in that scene? Either FFC didn't notice it, or he left it in because all of the Cuba footage was shot on location in the Dominican Republic, and he didn't want to re-shoot the scene and go through all that expense. He just thought no one would notice. Of course, that was before this Board was in operation.

No problem with Questadt still being in Cuba. There were a few high-falutin' bigwigs hanging out there and it must have really felt to Michael that he'd "arrived" to be surrounded by all those "legitimate" businessmen and politicians rather than mafia hoodlums and buttonmen.

I don't think the 'rescue" of Frankie (by the cop) was necessarily required inasmuch as the Rosatos needed to play incompetent at it. Tahoe...Cuba... now Pentangeli in New York...

I swear I can hear Captain Kirk in the background:
"Alright Roth. We tried it your way. You managed to kill everyone else but like a poor marksman, you keep missing the target!"

I really love the idea of Roth engineering the whole thing. Throughout the whole movie they're playing a game of chess. Roth's big move is the "Pentangeli Gambit" which almost takes Michael out of the game and surely takes Michael by surprise.
Only in a last, desperate and unpredictable move was Michael able to make a play that saved his butt. That play was rooted in that whole Sicilian thing- a move that Roth wouldn't necessarily understand (not being a Sicilian and not being privy to Pentangeli's personal life).

I'd say this is why I cling to the idea that Roth engineered it. Because dumb luck just seems a bit out of the Godfather element.

It was probably the same script that was referred to in this thread, which isn't an earlier script, unless ofcourse you can proof that it was. Most of the scenes in this script were filmed, but a lot of material was left out of the final cut as they otherwise would have had a film of five or six hours long.

I think Roth was not so much a strategist or engineer, but a brilliant improviser.

new member here - great site.

I have debated this question about the assault on Pentangeli for years. so i'm assuming that no one contends that Michael actually did order the hit on Frankie - seems unlikely given that the Rosatto Brothers carried it out.

but when Tom said later that Roth "played this one brilliantly, he engineered the whole thing" I have always leaned towards the belief that the intent was not to kill Pentangeli, but to turn him on Michael. why would they have planted the drugs on him otherwise. what purpose would that serve if they were going to kill him anyway ?

Welcome Tenn...this is among the most discussed aspesct of GFII because the prevailing consensus is that the actor who said "Michael Corleone says hello" improvised the line at the time, which, as it turns out proved temporarily fortuitous for Roth. But if you pick the scene apart, the pnly reason Pentangeli was not killed was because the cop happened into the bar which caused everyone to flee prematurely. Strangely, however it seems the Rosatos got away while Frankie and Cicci were caught and brought in.

I don't think the Rosatos got away with it. According to Tom in the penultimate boathouse scene, Roth and the Rosatos were "on the run."

The critical word that confounds people (and prolongs the debate here, as dt reminds us) is "Roth, he engineered this one beautifully." Roth could not have engineered Frankie's survival via split-second-timed appearance of that beat cop. What he engineered, through Questadt, was keeping Pentangeli's survival secret; using Cicci as a stalking horse to testify that he never got a direct order from Michael (making Michael believe that he could get away with perjury--and then dropping Pentangeli on Michael, opening him up to five counts of perjury.

I've said before (though most here don't agree) that Geary was in on it. As a subcommittee member, he had to know that Pentangeli survived. He was the one who specifically asked Cicci if there were always "buffas" between Cicci and Michael, setting up Cicci's reply--"No, I never talked to him"--that made Michael confident that he could lie under oath.

In the screenplay it is confirmed that it was a set-up aimed at turning Pentangeli against Michael. So this is how Puzo and Coppola intended it to be.

As for Geary, he was trying to discredit Cicci as a reliable witness as a favor to Michael. His speech about the Italian-Americans that followed made that quite obvious.

His speech reeked of hypocrisy, especially after the "oily hair/silk suit" slur he laid on Michael during Anthony's party.

I buy TB's minority view on Geary. Consider:

1. Willie Cicci openly admitted to Questadt that he was a "button" i.e. that he killed people when he was ordered to do so.

2. He then told Questadt that he never got an order from Michael, but he confirmed that Michael was the head of the family.

3. At that point Geary interrupts Questadt and asks Cicci to "amplify" his answer and the back and forth about "buffas" ensues.

What is going on here is a tag team approach by Geary and Questadt. If Geary wanted to stay under Michael's thumb he would have excused himself for his other committee meeting, and made his speech about how we should not judge all Italians by "a few rotten apples" without getting Cicci to admit there were beffers between him and Michael. The buffer of course was Pentangeli, and Geary had to know that Pentangeli was alive and ready to testify.

Being savvy, however, once Geary did this bit of dirty work, he leaves the scene to give himself some cover in case things with Michael do not go as planned. On theother hand, if they do, and Michael is fighting perjury counts, the blackmail against Geary is worthless. Some allegation about a past incident with a hooker -- that had been covered up --
would not fly if it came from the camp of a perjurer. It would look desperate, and Geary would be useless to Michael.

It may well be that all Michael ever wanted from Geary was to move Klingman out and cut Geary out of the profits, which he'd already accomplished. Still Geary damaged Michael in that hearing but gave himself enough cover by leaving the proceedings to defend himself should things come to that. N.B. Michael did not include Geary in his plan to wipe out all his enemies.

Geary's embarrassingly condescending rant about Italian Americans,at first glance, would indicate that he was still under Mike's thumb because of the hooker incident at Fredo's place. As we find out,Fredo was more involved with Roth than originally thought,i.e.,he knew about the Senate lawyer being "Roth's man".
Could Fredo have tipped Roth to the fact that Geary was compromised? Roth then would have had two ways to go.
1)Instruct Questadt to keep Pentangeli's existence secret from Geary until the last minute to let Geary (unintentionally) bury Mike.Seems unlikely.
2) Get the word to Geary that he (Roth) knew about the hooker (from Fredo),and that this was a chance for both of them to put Mike away,and eliminate any credible evidence of the hooker murder for good.Seems feasible
Personally,I don't think that Geary,or any member of the Committee,was unaware of the fact that Pentangeli was going to appear. Don't forget the scene where the Chairman goes ballistic about the affadavit from Pentangeli that they had prior to the hearing.So Geary puts on the show for Mike,ducks out,figuring that Five Angels will take care of his "Corleone problem". Geary was stupid,Mike was lucky.

Either way,I don't think any conclusion can be drawn from the fact that Geary wasn't killed later on. After all he was a Senator,and the heat would have been incredible.

I think option 2 is the correct one. Keep in mind that Fredo knew Pentangeli was alive and that Questadt belonged to Roth. He had to have obtained this information well after the attempt on Michael's life, which means he kept in touch with Roth and Ola. He probably did tell them how Geary had been compromised, and I am sure Roth would have seen to it that Geary be in on the plan to set Michael up for perjury. A word from Questadt .."Senator, my friend in Miami can take care of any of your troubles with Michael Corleone. We'll establish that Cicci killed people when he got orders to do it, and then you do what you can to give rise to the impliction that Mr. Corleone
was the head of the family. Once you've done that you can leave the committee to handle that other matter."

On a related subject, the ongoing relationship between Fredo and Roth would have been further reason for Michael to have him killed.

Also I wonder if Roth and his people had a hand in getting Fredo out of Cuba. Fredo was certainly no genius, but somehow he apparently made it to New York. When he got there maybe the Rosatos took care of him.

Knowing about the Geary-Michael connection would have made it very risky for Roth to tell Geary about Pentangeli.

While dt's scenario is plausible, I think it would be equally likely that Geary would have used that knowledge to barter a truce with Michael, leaving Roth with no weapon against Michael.

Also, Fredo knowing about Questadt does not necessarily mean that Fredo continued a relationship with Roth. He might have met Questadt through Roth or Ola before the Tahoe hit.

I think that Geary and Questadt both thought that the legendary Hyman Roth would never be outfoxed by someone like Mike,and consequently hitched their wagons to a dying horse.
Geary probably figured that he was better off with Roth knowing his little secret,and that he could go back to doing business with "decent Americans". Roth would make the "incident" go away,keep Geary on the payroll,and go merrily on his way while Mike did his perjury(and who knows what else?)time.

Although it is fun discussing this thread,my gut instinct is that FFC just wanted to show Geary as still under the control of Mike and wanting to keep Mike happy by giving his little speech. In my opinion,much like the drapes,and "Michael Corleone says hello",this is one of those things that just went into the final cut with no further thought.

Gotta love it,cause where would be without this kind of stuff to pump up the board?

Yes. In addition to making that (fatal)outburst against Michael in the boathouse, Fredo revealed that he knew Pentangeli had survived, and that Questadt belonged to Roth. Michael had to figure that Fredo could only have gotten that info from Roth--and that Fredo had deliberately withheld that info from Michael, even though revealing it before Michael's testimony might have rehabilitated Fredo in Michael's estimation.



I posted on that subject here:

http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthr...true#Post472494

The post you referenced TB seems perfectly logical. One question...obviously Fredo had called Tom ahead of Michael's return to Nevada. Wouldn't Tom have been curious about Dredo's detailed knowledge of Roth's escape, and why wouldn't he have told Michael. It is clear when Michael tells Tom to get hold of Fredo to tell him he could return to Nevada, that he was misled, etc., that Tomm had been informed Fredo was the traitor, and in league with Roth. It seems, however Michael and even Tom never connected the dots. Not until Michael tstified did Tom give Roth credit for engineering this so well. Is this another case of Tom not being a good wartime consigliere?

Maybe. Or maybe it is a combination of things. When Michael returned from Cuba he seemed a changed man. He was less analytical, and had a short fuse. He went about insulting Tom about not giving him straight answers, he saw his family was coming apart at the seams. It is possible Michael didn't see the whole picture clearly and it is possible Tom may not have broached the subject as a hypothetical simply because he was afraid Michael would not be receptive to batting around half baked ideas.

Well, that whole scene is a bit curious, dt:

When Michael asked Tom where Fredo was, he replied: "I think he must be in New York." You or I would have immediately asked: "You think he's in New York? How do you know? Did he call you? What did he say?" But Michael didn't. All he said was for Tom to get word to Fredo--confirming that he accepted that Tom knew where Fredo was.

Another anomaly: Michael was frantic to get Fredo on the plane with him out of Havana. And, the first thing he hammered Tom on when they were alone was, "Where's Fredo?" Michael could have arranged for Fredo to be snatched from whereever he was hiding out, and brought to him. But he didn't. After that scene in the Vegas hotel room, the fire seemed to have gone out from under Michael's urgent interest in Fredo.

Perhaps you're right: Michael might have been slippin'. If he'd grabbed Fredo immediately, Fredo might have told him about Pengangeli's survival and Questadt's beloning to Roth.

What's even more curious is that he sent Rocco and Neri out of the room. By this point they were no longer suspected of being traitors, and they had to have known about the Roth business, and even about Fredo's treachery -- after all it was Michael who later gave Neri the signal that Fredo was to be killed. I could see Tom meeting Michael one on one to give him hte news about Kay, but it was Michael who send R & N out of the room, not Tom, and at that point he had no clue about the "miscarriage."

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