hello. i am a superfan of Godfather. i like mike but i do not understand why fredo must die. fredo is so sweet. he is not a traitor any more.

This has been discussed elsewhere but it boils down to the fact that Fredo had showed twice that he would side against the family (first time with Moe Green, and second with Hyman Roth) and that he could be swayed to act against the family.

I personally think that he would not have been killed if he didn't have that outburst in the boathouse about being passed over; that showed Michael that he *resented* him for being the Don, and THAT meant that Fredo could never be trusted. Even if he was sent away into exile and nobody in the family dealt with him, he could still provide some information to people who wanted to ruin Michael, and likely would have out of resentment. Remember, he was swayed by Hyman Roth by the promise of something for himself, something more than just running a Mickey Mouse nightclub. Who's to say some other gangster wouldn't make him the same promise later on?

Imagine if Fredo wasn't killed; what if Don Altobello or Joey Zasa or Don Luchessi or someone else approached him with the same promise? Help us eliminate Michael and you'll be the new Don of the Corleones. I think the temptation would have been too strong once again for Fredo, as deep down he would still regret being treated like a schmuck (and if he hadn't been killed, would likely harbor even more resentment over being kicked out of the Family, as it were).

Fredo HAD to die, because otherwise there would be no guarantee that he wouldn't try the same thing again.

Absolutely right!
Also, Fredo knew that Pentangeli had survived, and that the Senate lawyer, Questadt, "belonged to Roth." Had he told Michael before Michael testified before the Senate committee, Michael could have avoided opening himself up to five counts of perjury. But Fredo didn't tell Michael until after he committed perjury.

Good answer Turnbull, I missed the part about Fredo knowing about Pentangeli and the lawyer. Did he confess this to Michael after Michael confronted him about knowing Johnny Ola? During the outburst at the boat house? I think if Fredo would have confessed to Michael he was manipulated by Roth and Johnny Ola after they shot at the house and then called Fredo on the phone when his wife was asleep he could have avoided being killed.

In the boathouse.

I don't know if Fredo ever could have avoided being killed.

Not to re-hash the whole discussion, but I disagree that Fredo was killed because of any potential threat that he posed to Michael.

If Michael felt Fredo was a threat, he never would have allowed him to live as long as Mama was alive, much less allow him to visit the compound.

Fredo was killed because, as Michael himself says in GFIII, he "injured" Michael. Whether Michael would have been less injured had Fredo come clean on his own is an interesting point of discussion.

I tend to think that Michael still would have killed Fredo, because Fredo's treachery led to an attack on Michael "in my home! In my bedroom, where my wife sleeps! Where my children come and play with their toys."

This cuts close to Michael's ultimate hypocrisy, that his efforts to "protect" his Family really endangered them. It would be easier for Michael to kill Fredo than to face that.

At least this one thing should have been clear to Fredo - right from the start of Michael's ascendancy to the donship: That Michael was utterly treacherous and ruthless, and that if Michael ever felt personally threatened, or felt that the family business was in danger, not even the bonds of brotherhood would keep Fredo safe from Michael's wrath.

Under the circumstances, had I been in Fredo's shoes, I would have been quite content to manage a "Mickey Mouse nightclub" - if it meant that I was removed from all the cutthroat machinations of the family business. I'd have taken care of business, patiently worked my way up - and ultimately asked Michael for a 100% legit business of my own, so as to stay entirely clear of all the murder & mayhem.

And if by chance I had been stupid enough to get taken in by Hyman Roth & Johnny Ola, I think I would try my best to get out ahead of the situation. Realizing that Michael was incredibly smart & resourceful, and would eventually find out about my involvement anyway, I think I would take my chances by going to Michael directly, confessing my disloyalty, apologizing profusely, begging his forgiveness, and promising to never do such a thing again.

No guarantees that doing so would have saved Fredo's life. But there's at least a chance that Michael would have respect for Fredo having stood up, taken responsibility for his actions, tried to make it right, and given Michael the courtesy of a direct confession.

Questadt, you are much smarter than Fredo.

I personally think Michael would have killed Fredo even without that outburst in the boathouse or even if Fredo told him everything before Michael committed perjury. Michael seems to me a character who will kill anyone even if the risk that the intended target constitutes danger is small, and blood relationships or even remorse expressed by the target means nothing to him.

I agree. Mike in Part 2 was just pure evil. I mean anyone with common sense knows that fredo while stupid is not the kind og guy who would hurt his family. Also the way Mike treated his family especially his wife was really bad.

Dwalin, I have to disagree with the "target constitutes danger is small" statement ONLY because what Fredo did wasn't small. The fact Fredo didn't confess after the shooting implies that he was on Roth's side, meaning the blood relationship meant nothing to him either... he simply wasn't as educated and well traveled as Michael. I am not saying Michael wasn't ruthless, just saying Roth and Ola were just as ruthless as Michael. I also wouldn't have minded managing mickey mouse clubs... as a matter of fact I would have moved across the country away from the chaos opened a club and enjoyed banana daiquiris left and right.

I started a thread awhile back: "If Fredo had come clean..." and told Michael about Pentangeli and Questadt voluntarily, and before Michael's perjured testimony. Would Michael have given him a pass? And, would Michael have done anything different in his Senate testimony?

I believe Fredo was far more involved with Roth than he let on:

http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthr...true#Post472494

I read the thread, TB. Truly a fascinating deconstruction of means and motives that are not obviously in evidence. You have a genuine talent for circumstantial inference that is well-matched to the Godfather plot line.

The Mario Puzo / FFC collaboration produced a plot of impressive sophistication and nuance, especially intriguing being the elements of the story that are merely implied - not stated outright - but are nevertheless essential to a complete understanding of the characters and the various dynamics in play, as you've accurately expounded.

You've made a believer out of me. Clearly Fredo must have been into the conspiracy far deeper than meets the naked eye.

Absolutely correct on all counts Q.

Fredo was more in on things that I initially would have thought and I never would have thought that Roth wasn't as sick as he made himself out to be. He must have been a pretty good actor to play dead while the body guard tried to kill him. All very interesting and valid theories. Great read for me. Thank you!!!

By revealing that he knew Roth's relationship with Questadt, Fredo proved that he was very involved with Roth, far more than a simple "he said there was something in it for me". And his loss of temper in the boathouse also revealed to Michael that his resentment and bitterness ran deep. Fredo was a danger to the Family and had to be eliminated.

Michael put him in exile until Mama was dead so he would have nothing worthwhile to pass on to Michael's enemies, and then set him up to be killed.

Am I the only one thinking that this was a troll post or a bot? Maybe I'm just being paranoid here.

The one thing that really gets me is when Fredo says, "I didn't know it was going to be a hit, Michael."

I mean Fredo was no genius but are we really supposed to believe with him going through what he went through growing alongside Vito that he didn't know what was really going to happen?

Also, that scene where Johnny Ola calls and wakes up Fredo made me think that Roth must have been blackmailing Fredo into taking part in the plot to kill Michael.

The OP? It's not exactly the most lucid comment I've ever seen posted to an Internet forum. And that's a pretty low bar already.

I'm suspicious by nature, so it's probably just me.

That was dope and very good point Quest.

Another reason why Fredo had to die:

Any Don is constantly being watched, by foe and friend, for signs of weakness and hence vulnerability. If Michael had given Fredo a pass after all his treachery and especially Fredo's outburst of resentment in the boathouse, it would have made Fredo an easy mark for another enemy of Michael's to approach Fredo with another scheme to get what Fredo believed was rightfully his. :

Don't know Turnbull no one witnessed Fredo's outburst of resentment in the boathouse

Fredo was managed until Mama died and Michael could have continued to do so Nothing happened during that time

Neri was right outside the room where Fredo had his outburst--he heard it. If Neri thought Michael had gone soft, he could have started having doubts about Michael's toughness--and started plotting his own ascent.

That's the constant danger a Don is in. Everyone's watching him for signs of weakness. Even friends can become foes if they see a weakness.

Didn't Michael have to walk a fair bit to where Neri was sitting? Nevertheless only Neri knew Fredo's fate when Mama dies

If others thought it was signs of weakness still Nothing happened during that time Mama was alive

But Neri looked crestfallen when Michael gave him the look after embracing Fredo; I think Neri would not have minded in the least if Fredo had been allowed to live.

Well when the boss says push a button on a guy....

I don't disagree Fredo could be taken in by another of Michael's enemies as happened with Roth / Ola but as we debated Fredo's killing, further in -

What if appollonia didn't die ?