I'm not talking about Frank Sr.'s trial. I'm talking specifically about Frank Jr.'s testimony.

Jr. said nothing about the other Family Secrets defendants nor did he name anyone specifically still on the street. He did this intentionally and IMO, it was blessed by Toots. Jr. was used against his Dad and only against his Dad, who at that time, was already well out of favor with the powers that remained on 26th Street (the Caruso's).

Additional evidence of this is that Jr. still associates with Elmwood Park Crew members, including Jonny DiFronzo's drive/aide Little Gino Marino:
http://americannewspost.com/joseph-fosco/3455/outfit-boss-john-difronzo-is-a-double-agent/

While Fosco may claim DiFronzo is a "double agent," my belief is that DiFronzo -- like others in the Outfit -- knows Frank Jr. only ratted on his father with permission from Toots and therefor he's not considered a "rat."

And Jonny if you don't want to get into a pissing match, then stop pissing, zip up and go home

I will write more later, but it wasn't Frank Jr.'s testimony that sunk Frank Sr.

It was the wire Jr. wore on Sr.

Your theory necessitates Jr. and Toots anticipating that, under this scheme, Sr. wouldn't say anything incriminating about anyone except himself, or at least anyone they cared about, which is obviously impossible.

Yeah Frank Jr is a rat, and the fact that he threw his Father under the bus is just a telling sign that hes willing to save his skin no matter what. So I dont think anybody whos connected signed off on his betrayal. Just my 2 cents.

You realize wires don't provide "live feeds" to the FBI right? Mob rats are known to turn their wires on and off when discussing specific subjects or specific guys. Then they had the tapes to the FBI.

Occam's Razor

But then again you guys could also be right...I'm not really going to argue about a theory I can't really prove--just more food for thought.

if he's stile hanging around with mob guys then he might've been given the okay to rat

lombardo is the only person that went to jail that elmwood park gave a fuck about

somebody ratting on their father is more unbelievable than chicago letting him rat

I believe Frank Jr. only testified against his father. I can't remember where I read it but it seemed like there was no love lost when from the Southside crew when Sr. went to prison and that Jr. still might have some business/real estate deals out in AZ with the Southside crew. Again I remember reading that somewhere, but can't remember.

Yeah he did, but none the less hes a informer so... idk whats going on but I just would have to laugh at a gangster saying "ok just dont mention me". Then again im not "in the know" lol.

[quote=]Yeah he did, but none the less hes a informer so... idk whats going on but I just would have to laugh at a gangster saying "ok just dont mention me". Then again im not "in the know" lol. [/quote]

Well you sure have strong opinions for someone "not in the know" This isn't the 1950s anymore...Ralph DeLeo ratted in a drug case and was elected boss of the Colombo's.

The old rules no longer apply...

Mario Rainone is another great example. He wore a wire on everyone from Lenny Patrick to Sam Carlisi. He got spooked, tried to recant his testimony, then plead out and spent years in prison. He still wore a wire however and provided info--info that sent a lot of guys to prison.

Yet when Rainone got out, he's given a loan to get back on his feed by Billy Daddono. Then he's arrested again with Rudy Fratto's son in law Vinny Forliano. Why would Rudy allow his son in law to commit crimes with a "rat" like Mario?

Isn't Rainone's kid's stepfather a Daddono as well?

Yes I think so. I think Rainone's kid is in prison right now for that credit card scam with Andy Rovaro.

Well you sure have strong opinions for someone "not in the know" This isn't the 1950s anymore...Ralph DeLeo ratted in a drug case and was elected boss of the Colombo's.

The old rules no longer apply...


Mario Rainone is another great example. He wore a wire on everyone from Lenny Patrick to Sam Carlisi. He got spooked, tried to recant his testimony, then plead out and spent years in prison. He still wore a wire however and provided info--info that sent a lot of guys to prison.

Yet when Rainone got out, he's given a loan to get back on his feed by Billy Daddono. Then he's arrested again with Rudy Fratto's son in law Vinny Forliano. Why would Rudy allow his son in law to commit crimes with a "rat" like Mario?


[/quote]

God know your right about things changing, my thing is no one knew what frank sr might have said on wire. I wont do the back and forth with you as some here do. My thing is Frank jr getting permission from made guys to rat is hard to believe but as johnny said there was no way to tell what might be said so... frank jr is a fucking scumbag but so was dad, however I just dont see made guys giving permission to frank jr to wear a wire on his dad WTF. If hes willing to jam his dad up what would he do to them.

Is Ralph Peluso still around? I know he got his job back at IDOT a few years back...

On the wire Sr. was quoted as telling his kid that all it would take was getting rid of 7 guys and you could take over the entire Outfit. This was in the late 90s/early 2000s. He followed up his statement with "...that's what it's come to."

No argument that he's a rat. But he wasn't facing any serious time. He's one of the few that I genuinely believe turned states evidence to put the other party away (not save own skin). Frank was more than halfway through his 57 month sentence at the FCI when he decided to reach out to the FBI. Seems more like he was pissed at his abusive asshole of a father than wanting to save his own skin from 26ish months in the can.

Yeah I didnt think of that, however I still dont think a made man gave permission to wire and record another made mans statements. I mean no one knew what frank sr might say and who it may have caused damage too. Just my 2 cents but I find it highly unlikey frank jr got permission from anyone made Into the oufit to wear a wire on his dad no matter the circumstances.

Yeah, I don't find it very plausible that Caruso would allow Frank, Sr. to be wiretapped. It doesn't make any sense, especially considering that Sr. could have implicated Caruso himself.

I've seen this used before, and it makes little sense to me. If you took out the top 7 guys in the Outfit in the 70s, wouldn't it make sense you'd probably have been able to take control of the entire organization? If Tony Spilotro had taken out Aiuppa, Accardo, Cerone, Carlisi, Ferriola, and LaPietra in 1980....wouldn't he have a good chance at being top shit?

Perhaps he meant that there is a huge drop off from the top 7 guys and not much backing them up. If you took those guys out in the 80's, wouldn't there have been Marcello, Calabrese, Infelice, Andriacci, DiFronzo, Lombardo, Solano, Monteleone, etc, and their crews to fill the vacuum and would be willing to be violent to keep what is there's and take what isn't?

Now there probably isn't. If you took out DiFronzo, Caruso, Vena, Solly D, etc, would there be people willing to step up and be violent to fill the void and take what was left?

I don't know. Seems like there are a lot less players and people will to go to war over the rackets.

Just food for thought.

So many times a major sweep of indictments happens, and the media and the FBI rule the family "finished"
Most of the time, they are wrong
Chicago is not what it once was, but the 28 members claimed by the feds is not only wrong, but it contradicts a staement from THIER OWN sworn witness, who put the number above 60, which is much closer to reality

If Spilotro had the muscle to take out the seven guys Funkster mentioned in his post the guys you mentioned would probably fall in line fairly quickly.

It's just not worth the trouble, which is part of the reason Spilotro was whacked because he was too reckless and power-hungry and the bosses were ready to just wash their hands of him at that point.

I imagine Sr. was talking tough to Jr., making it sound like he could whack a few guys and take over "if he wanted to."

^^^agreed. I think he was being his typical blowhard self.

I have no idea if Frank Sr. Was being a blowhard or not. But his comment nevertheless offers 1000 times more insight into the state of the organization than any outside speculators.

LOL, seriously if you can whack out the 7 top guys in the Gambinos or Genovese you'd take over. That has to be the dumbest comment ever. That's pretty much taking out everyone above him. Unless he took all seven out simultaneously he's trunk music. Good luck with that.

How many did Gotti have to whack? One. The Breeze never was that close to the top, just liked to talk shit.

And even more ridiculous is that anyone even gives this blowhards BS any credibility.

So he's gonna pull off a St. Valentines Day on the upper echelon of the Outfit to move up and take over.

This tool couldn't even keep his brother or son in line.

He took orders, was a brutal killer, ran book and juice and broke legs. Nothing more than that, and certainly not smart enough to go further.

I don't think Mo was a great boss since he antagonized the feds, he was a Mensa member compared to this idiot.

It wasn't said as part of a plan.

It was just an observation.

Actually gotti had to kill quite a lot of people after.And there were quite a few plots against him such as people trying to blow him up.

Since the outfit is chicagos only cosa nostra family its not like he's got to worry about how doing it would effect anyone else's interests like how it would in ny.

I forget the exact context if the conversation, but he was just walking around the jail yard b*llshitting with his kid.

It's in Coen's Family Secrets.

The exact quote was something along the lines of "If you just got rid of 7 guys (or maybe "brought 7 guys into line") you could take over the whole thing. That's what it's come to."