Just wanted to discuss these 2 characters.

Especially, I would like to ask people well informed about the Stanley "Tookie" Williams's case, do you think was he really the shooter in those murders he was convicted for or was he framed? There are all these articles on internet that point in both directions. As far as I know, he never admitted to the murders, but this fact doesn't really mean anything by itself.

As for Raymond Lee Washington, was his murder ever solved or at least were there any facts pointing to specific characters as responsible even though there was no proof?
By the way, Washington is one of the few murdered criminals I feel sorry about (the other being Willie Marfeo). I mean, he was just a robber who tried to keep certain rules, unlike those who took his place after his death. I remember in a documentary there was the description of this episode when Washington once met an accomplice and saw he had a gun on him, so he just took this gun, threw it into the sewers and said something like "get rid of this sh#t, we don't need such things, otherwise what the fists are for?".

If you can post some articles that stated why tookie didn't commit those murders then please do, I can't say much on that. As far as Raymond the founder, it's sad that most crips didn't lived by his philosophy. But if he could of kept the alliance between his gang and tookie then we probably would never heard of crips. Also, it's believed he was killed by another crip gang.

I've read Tookie Williams biography, and while he always denied having committed those crimes, the evidence is pretty overwhelming against him. It's should also be noted that he was admittedly addicted to PCP, and he admitted to smoking the days of the killings. It's been known that PCP can cause people to commit acts of aggression that they do not remember and wouldn't normally do. While I liked the guy personally, I am quite sure he was guilty.

Washington on the other hand was not nearly as important as his life went on. He was killed in cold blood, likely by a fellow Crip as BlackFamily noted, and his killer was never caught.

There are these ones for example:

http://www.606studios.com/bendisboard/sh...uld-be-innocent

http://www.finalcall.com/artman/publish/article_2313.shtml

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/12/01/168864/-Tookie-Williams-Guilty-or-Not-Guilty

I read somewhere that the set hoover crips killed Raymond Washington, no idea if there's any truth to that though. Tookie definitely killed those people though, i didn't read those articles but there was never any reasonable doubt that Tookie killed those people. I've also read places that Tookie was a founder along with Raymond, as well as Barefoot Pookie and especially Jimel Barnes taking Tookie's place as co-founder, i personally think Jimel Barnes was most likely co-founder. Tookie was cleary a scary guy in his day though -

i think that washington got stuck in a angelo bruno type situation.
Tookie was a monster though, i feel sorry for anyone that tried to step to him one on one.

i found this on the hoover crips.

1. Hoover Criminal Gang

The Hoover Criminal Gang's were once Crips, the word "Hoover" comes from a blvd of the same name that runs through certain areas in South Central Los Angeles. The Hoover Criminals came out of the Gangster Crip sets, but around 1979, the Gangster Crip sets began feuding with the Neighborhood Crip sets.... These rivalries are perhaps the oldest of Crip on Crip feuds that has lead to hundreds of these gangs to kill eachother since the feud began in 1979. This feud mainly consists between the Rollin 60's who are part of the Neighborhood Crip sets and the Eight Tray Hoover's. Around 1995 the Hoover Gangs decided to be a gang on its own because of their deadly feuds with many Crip sets. The Hoovers decided to keep the letter "C" but changed its meaning from "Crip" to "Criminal".

The Eight Tray Hoovers (ETG, 83 Hoover) hold the biggest gang turf in South Central, its gang turf is about five miles long. Other Hoover Gangs are the 74 Hoover (Seven Foe), Bay Bayz, Raskals, Everyday Hoover (ED Hoover), Hoover Crime Gang and others.

The Hoovers are so big that many other Hoover gangs do not know that they are no longer Crips in some parts of the world. The word Hoover has also been known to be spelled "Hoova", some Hoover sets in parts of the country say "Hoova Crip".... The Hoover Gangs are still considered to be part of the Gangster Crip sets, but they now feud with Crips, Bloods, Sur13. The Hoovers only unite with Piru sets in Prisons (they do this because the Piru sets are now a gang on its own as well and are no longer considered Blood gangs).... The Hoover gangs still keep close ties with the Hoover Crips that decided not to change to Hoover Criminals in 1995. The Hoover gangs also are on good terms with a few Crip sets in some areas of the World. What makes the Hoover gangs unique is that it also has Blood sets as well that are conisdered to be part of the Hoover Family.

The Hoover Gangs use the Orange color and in some cases use it along with the Blue color, the Hoovers still say "Cuz" like all other Crip gangs do but they now prefer to say "Grove" or "Groove". They also use a five pointed star or the star of david because they also unite with the Gangster Disiples of Chicago....

True indeed it was said that he was killed by another crip known as the Hoover crip set at the time big bam one of the original leaders of the Hoovers were accused but was never...proved to have done it...

90% of that is true and 10% is false...i used to ride with the Hoovers I'm from 51st Vermont and the crops in LA hardly ever speak on a GD...

Hoover broke away from the Crips? I guess it doesn't really matter since they mostly just kill eachother anyway - so they might as well not call themselves crips, I guess... But still Hoover Criminals? Couldn't they think of anything more imaginative than that? So lame.

It amazes me all the whining and effort that went to trying to save a guy that was convicted of a number of murders and lost repeatedly at every level of appeal as the evidence became stronger each time.

b-but... He wrote a CHILDREN'S book! Surely that redeems him?

Okay the Hoovers are criminals but its one set that's not the 52 Hoovers are still crips...known as 52 Hoover gangster crips if you wanna know why I could tell you...

No jimel Barnes was not a co founder he was an original though...

Raymond was the leader of the East Side Crips at the time of his death. East Side Crips evolved into East Coast Crips. the Hoover vs East Coast rivalry continues to this day, and its beginnings can be traced back to Raymond's murder. Big Bam,was one of the founders of the Hoovers,he was sentenced to life in prison for a separate murder the same year that Raymond was killed ('79),but was paroled a few years back.

i'm intrigued! Go ahead

Very true and when crips first came along it was...the east side crips from Fremont high,west side crips from Washington high,east side baby crips at Locke high,and Compton crips at centinal high...

The reason why the 52 Hoovers are gangster crips is because they share a hood with the 51 trouble gangster crips known as the hall dale crips and are really a baby Hoover set also when the beef between the Hoovers and east coast crips sparked up the Hoovers were cool with the west town 52 Broadway gangster crips so they sided with the gangster card...

Q: Are the Hoover Criminals actually a non-crip set now? I've heard they still wear a blue flag in addition to the Hoover orange.

If they aren't actual crips now, do they maintain their historic alliances with other crip sets? Surely there are still crip Hoover sets, even if the majority drop the "crip" tag?

kinda like the whining u were doing about george zimmerman

Was he found guilty of multiple murders and lost several dozen appeals at both the federal and state level?

Or are you just a complete moron that doesn't understand the very basics of the legal process.

Yes the 52's are still Hoovers they are called the 52 Hoover gangster crips aka the young hoggs or the nifty fiftys

Anyone remember that song from the past decade " WE CERTIFIED GANGSTA'S "

hey,that's a great point. gangs were carved up into school territories,as well as neighborhood. the focus has always been on the neighborhood aspect of gangs but we seem to neglect the fact that what school you go to can determine what gang you ran with