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Roth/Rosatos/Michael #773646
04/20/14 09:08 AM
04/20/14 09:08 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,695
AZ
Turnbull Offline OP
Turnbull  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,695
AZ
Roth lived in Miami, and had legitimate gambling interests in Nevada and Havana. Why would he interest himself in a quarrel between Pentangeli and the Rosato brothers over three territories in the Bronx? And why would Michael take Roth's and the Rosatos' side against Pentangeli, his own caporegime?


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Roth/Rosatos/Michael [Re: Turnbull] #773648
04/20/14 09:24 AM
04/20/14 09:24 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325
MI
Lilo Offline
Lilo  Offline

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325
MI
The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Roth was wily and perceptive enough to know that Michael's ambitions included matching and surpassing/replacing Roth as the foremost casino mogul/legitimate "gangster" in both Nevada and Cuba. So it was in part aggressive self-defense. Keep Michael off balance and worried about what's going on in NY and maybe he won't see coming what your real plans are.

Also as Roth admitted, Michael's murder of Greene rubbed Roth the wrong way. So there was also a little personal revenge involved as well.

For Michael's part, I think it's fair to say that he also, similar to Roth, saw the Pentangeli-Rosato dust up as small potatoes and wanted to cement his power/foothold in Cuba/Nevada before dealing with Roth. This was before the assassination attempt on Michael but after that it was even more important to Michael that Roth underestimate him and think that Michael was blinded by the money that presumably the two could make together.


"When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives."
Winter is Coming

Now this is the Law of the Jungle—as old and as true as the sky; And the wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the wolf that shall break it must die.
As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk, the Law runneth forward and back; For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.
Re: Roth/Rosatos/Michael [Re: Turnbull] #773650
04/20/14 10:37 AM
04/20/14 10:37 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,030
Texas
O
olivant Offline
olivant  Offline
O

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,030
Texas
Lilo, basically I agree with you.

However, I question whether Michael had an authentic interest in Havana's casinos. I think he could take them or leave them. Two things coincided in Cuba: 1) Michael became aware that Castro might succeed and if he did, all bets were off (by the way, I think Michael was astute enough to figure that as a possibility before he went to Cuba); 2) he knew that Roth was behind the assassination attempt and he planned to strike first, then quickly depart Cuba.

Of course, he had to keep Roth assured, so that's why he instructed Frankie to settle these problems with the Rosatos.

By the way, I wonder how and when Michael found out that Roth was still alive since he didn't inquire when he arrived back in the US.

Last edited by olivant; 04/20/14 10:40 AM.

"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Roth/Rosatos/Michael [Re: olivant] #773651
04/20/14 10:57 AM
04/20/14 10:57 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,695
AZ
Turnbull Offline OP
Turnbull  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,695
AZ
Originally Posted By: olivant
By the way, I wonder how and when Michael found out that Roth was still alive since he didn't inquire when he arrived back in the US.

Tom told him--first thing after he asked Rocco and Neri to step outside.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Roth/Rosatos/Michael [Re: Turnbull] #773663
04/20/14 12:51 PM
04/20/14 12:51 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,030
Texas
O
olivant Offline
olivant  Offline
O

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,030
Texas
Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Originally Posted By: olivant
By the way, I wonder how and when Michael found out that Roth was still alive since he didn't inquire when he arrived back in the US.

Tom told him--first thing after he asked Rocco and Neri to step outside.


I know. However, Tom's info about Roth was presented as incidental and as a response to a question about Fredo. I would think that Michael would surely want to know if his plot had succeeded. Remember, he yelled to Fredo that Roth was dead. To find out that he was still alive would seem to be a major concern.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Roth/Rosatos/Michael [Re: olivant] #773896
04/22/14 07:12 PM
04/22/14 07:12 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,695
AZ
Turnbull Offline OP
Turnbull  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,695
AZ
In my view, Roth's interest in NY and the Rosatos was strictly defensive. Michael had been trying to horn in on his gaming interests ever since he returned from Sicily--even arranging to kill Moe Green, Roth's best friend. Roth thought it was either kill or be killed. But, NY under Pentangeli, Michael's underboss, was his muscle and his deterrent--without his NY muscle, Michael would have been just another legitimate casino operator in Nevada, fair game for real gangsters.

So, Roth needed to neutralize NY. By pushing the Rosatos' claims, Roth was setting up Pentangeli. If the Tahoe assassination attempt had succeeded, Pentangeli would have been blamed. He'd be on the run, and the Rosatos would take over the "olive oil business" as Roth's allies. When Tahoe failed, Roth went to Plan 2: lure Michael to Havana, get the $2 million, and have him whacked. As a runup, he had the Rosatos plan to kill Pentangeli, so that Michael's successors wouldn't be able to call on NY muscle to avenge him.

A question presents itself: why didn't Michael get suspicious of Roth pushing the Rosatos' claims when he had no obvious interest in NY Mob politics? I'm guessing it was greed. He was hot for Roth's Cuban properties. Roth probably mollified him: "Look, Michael, I owe the Rosatos a favor. Just go along--it'll be good for our deal."


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Roth/Rosatos/Michael [Re: Turnbull] #773898
04/22/14 07:20 PM
04/22/14 07:20 PM
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 351
M
MikeyO Offline
BANNED
MikeyO  Offline
BANNED
M
Capo
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 351
I always thought Moe Green was a little light in the loafers.

Re: Roth/Rosatos/Michael [Re: MikeyO] #774253
04/25/14 10:55 AM
04/25/14 10:55 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso Offline
Consigliere to the Stars
dontomasso  Offline
Consigliere to the Stars

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
I agree with TB, and add this: One thing Michael and Roth had in common was perpetuating the fiction that they had become so successful in "legitimate" gambling in Vegas and in Roth's case Cuba, that they no longer had any interests in what went on in the streets of New York, or the other territories over which they may have had control. Both understood that without street muscle, they were basically at the mercy of the pezzzanovante like "Keefaufaver and the Justice Department," as Roth more or less put it. Running the streets in New York carried the cred that gave them the ability to work within the system and to control it to some degree. Michael never really abandoned the strts, and neithe did Roth, and when their interests clashed, there was always a danger of war.


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: Roth/Rosatos/Michael [Re: MikeyO] #774256
04/25/14 11:01 AM
04/25/14 11:01 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso Offline
Consigliere to the Stars
dontomasso  Offline
Consigliere to the Stars

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
Originally Posted By: MikeyO
I always thought Moe Green was a little light in the loafers.


Nah, not Moe...he of the American Eagle Tatt, the massage, not at all. Fanucci, Fredo, Anthony...maybe but not Moe!....[/i]not that there's anything wring with it![i]


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: Roth/Rosatos/Michael [Re: Turnbull] #774445
04/27/14 06:46 AM
04/27/14 06:46 AM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 113
MASS.
paddy78 Offline
Made Member
paddy78  Offline
Made Member
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 113
MASS.
moe gree, the guy who played him was an associate of the boston lcn and moved out to hollywood and got the part!


Southie
(South Boston, Mass) my home town!!

Here to learn,lecture and have fun.
Re: Roth/Rosatos/Michael [Re: dontomasso] #774665
04/28/14 05:33 PM
04/28/14 05:33 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 68
Professor_M Offline
Button
Professor_M  Offline
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Posts: 68
Well, he [Moe] did make his boners while Mike was hanging with the cheerleaders, something like that.

Last edited by Professor_M; 04/28/14 05:34 PM.
Re: Roth/Rosatos/Michael [Re: Turnbull] #774678
04/28/14 06:43 PM
04/28/14 06:43 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,030
Texas
O
olivant Offline
olivant  Offline
O

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,030
Texas
As TB points out, Roth wanted the Rosatos to be a thorn in Frankie's side and, thus, in Michael's side as well. Indeed, if Michael were killed, Frankie's position would be quite weakened and the Rosatos would be positioned to seriously challenge his control of the Corleone NY turf.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."

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