what about the New Orleans family? Turnbull?


my thoughts

(This is a chart on the New Orleans LCN Family. The chart was made by a guy named Lennert on the Real Deal Forum. It was made in 2010.)

As it said, this chat was made in 2010, 3 almost 4 years ago and has only listed "KNOWN" members.
for New Orleans to be one of the oldest in organized crime (NOT TO MENTION ONE OF THE MOST CORRUPT CITIES IN THE NATION) not to have so much HEAT of the nation or police on them "thanks to family's from the north".
its seems foolish to out rule the possibility that the family is over & done with.
Anyone from New Orleans or the south coast can easily see the money to be made here. just for 1, the offshore oil field.
Now offshore oil works are not always in USA waters witch makes it a lot easier to clean money and hide other forms of organized crime income.
The south has only been coming up due to oil & gas, as a lot of the rest of the country are losing jobs everyday. This is also due to the port of fourchon being the #2 top import of oil & gas in the U.S.A.
Some of you say the New Orleans Family is no more.
I say, "if the people were not good at what they do, then it would have never happened in the first place".
The entire organization is based upon the silence of what they are and what they do. If the silence is upheld, it leads everyone to believe that it is no more.
So maybe rethink the thought of the New Orleans Family being over, or continue to think that they are gone and by that thought alone you may very well be giving them more power.

Cough...bullshit....Cough...

Marcello properties....legit
Pinnacle operations......legit
Fertitta family buying ameristar.....legit
By the way fertittas have deep Sicilian roots as well ass NOLA lake charles etc
Fact is if the south dont flash then i guess they fly under the radar nobody doin stupid shit here we laughing at the yoyos gettin caught at stupid shit up north plenty of legit stuff out there last guy to do time here was Vincent for coke and dat aint hapnin any more

Oh and Joe Ancona who is out on halfway house deal but his mma studio still rockin

Not throwing lawn darts at the north just saying that when some of the movie star dons got going up there seems everyone got hurt.A very smart italian man said to me when I was 21 don't drive,wear,show or f'?-;k your money and you'll always be ok.Its working out

Huh?? Please tell me your not trying a reference to the defunct NOLA crime family?

Jerry Capeci NYT

One of the biggest myths about LCN
"It is a bunch of killers"
Not so....not even close
I have met and know scores of made guys and associates in my life, and I would guess less than 25% of them ever killed anyone.
It made up on mostly theives, not killers, and the myth that you have to kill someone to be made is an even bigger myth.

I just noticed I didn't reply to this comment. I see why.

Was this guy even in the Mafia?

Or did he just say tell the producers of Manhattan Mob Rampage that he was a gangster and they took one look at him and say "Ok. He looks like he's taken a few bullets in the brain. We'll run with this".

.... this I agree with. I think it's more about making money than getting violent!

In any case, any violence is unlikely to be perpetrated against the general public.

Surely to be controversial, this brief video from Bloodletters & Badmen attempts to correct many of the historical inaccuracies. Hollywood, perhaps more than any other has misrepresented a lot of the people and events surrounding the Castellammarese War between the two Mafia factions of Joe "the Boss" Masseria and Salvatore Maranzano. I hope this video will help in correcting some of there mistakes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CWsvzI--eU

B&B, did you make this video/documentary? If so, you are actually contributing to the confusion and the inaccuracies.
The picture depicting Salvatore Maranzano for example, is not of him but of a pimp based in London, England by the name of Salvatore Messina. The Castellamamarese war started in 1930 and ended in 1931 (and not in 1928 as said in the video/documentary). Another extremely important thing to point out is that only Cosa Nostra bosses were members of the Commission. No outsiders had seats or votes on the Commission. Al Capone, evan though he had Neopolitan roots, and the group he led, was recognized as Cosa Nostra right after the murder of Masseria. When the Commission was formed, right after the Maranzano murder, Capone was given a seat on the Commission.

Other than these points I made, the video/documentary is produced flawlessly. Welcome to the forum!

Dear Friend,

This is the problem with "underworld" history. Its very nature is secretive. These guys do not keep diaries or do interviews with 60 minutes.

As to your comments about the Commission, this is simply inaccurate by most accounts from historical researchers. Historian Carl Sifakis in his volume "The Mafia Encyclopedia" notes,

"Confusion is a result of the fact that there are really two commissions...[Source here is Joseph Bonanno] he speaks only of the commission as a unit representing the five New York families, with a representative from Chicago and at various times from a few additional cities such as Buffalo, Detroit and Philadelphia." p. 114

The larger group also referred to as the Commission or Syndicate was that formed by the non-Sicilian Charles Luciano and his Jewish friends Meyer Lansky and Ben Siegel. This group was "national". And had representatives from every major city in the US. It included such notable mobsters like Dutch Schultz, Abner "Longy" Zwillman, Moe Dalitz, and others.

It was this group which consolidated power and was dreamed of by Johnny Torrio and Charlie Luciano.

It was this group which had Dutch Schultz killed for disobeying a decision of the Board with respect to Thomas E. Dewey. And by the way, Schultz was, at the time, the most powerful mobster in the city.

During the 1950's a power shift took place. Jewish gangs were on the decline. The Irish were already gone. So Italians began dominating both the five families and the national commission i.e. the Syndicate.

It is interesting to note that I said "Italians" and not Sicilians. Sicilians were Mafioso. Those from the mainland were not. In fact, a bitter rivalry existed between the two. The latter may or may not have been "Camorra."

By the time the 1970's rolled around, most of the five families were no longer Mafia in the traditional sense (the way Joseph Bonanno would have defined it.)

Further, the term Cosa Nostra (our thing) was first used by Salvatore Maranzano to represent the five families which he established. It was not used by any other city.

As to the Castellammarese War, I have books from various researchers who give dates as early as 1928 (before the shooting started). They maintain that the way started in late 1928!

I guess I could go on and on.

G. Marshall Johnson

Underboss, by the way, with all that said I do want to thank you for your comments. I wish this was an easier field of research. Your observations are well received.

I´m not talking about the Jewish syndicate, when I refer to the Commission. I´m talking about the Commission, formed by the five leaders of the New York Mafia, in late 1931. Whatever the Jewish gangsters may have had as a supreme ruling body of their organisation (and I´m doubtful they had any actually) shouldn´t be confused with the Mafia Commission. You quote Carl Sifakis in your post above. Sifakis may be a historian, but he is definitely not a researcher. His "The Mafia Encyclopedia" is full of factual errors and shouldn´t be regarded as a legit source. Never did the Jewish gangsters have any seats or votes on the Mafia Commission. No matter what Sifakis says.

There are three primary main sources on the early NY Mafia (late 1920s to 1950s) you should keep in higher regard. They are Joseph Valachi, Joseph Bonanno and Nicola Gentile. David Critchley´s book "The Origin of Organized Crime in America", for example, uses these three main sources heavily on subjects within that time frame (late 1920s to 1950s). Joseph Bonanno, who was actually a participant in the Castellammarese war and with an overview of the war second to none, tells in his "A Man of Honor" (from about page 93) about the origin and the leading up to the war. The first casualties were Milazzo and Perrino in Detroit, two Castellammaresi whose deaths needed to be avenged. They were both killed in 1930. (It´s not certain if Gaetano Reina´s murder can be considered part of the war, but in any case, the murder happened in 1930.) If you can find any relaible sources of killings in 1928 and 1929 related to the war, please post them here.

Salvatore Maranzano did not establish the five Families. As the boss of bosses, he had the authority to replace bosses. The five Families were established way before the Castellammarese war. In the late 1920s, the New York Families were led by Nicola Schiro (Bonanno Family), Joe Masseria (Genovese Family), Joseph Profaci/Salvatore DiBella (Colombo Family), Al Mineo (Gambino Family) and Gaetano Reina (Lucchese Family). How far back these five Families goes, nobody knows. They were not formed or created or born in 1931.

For the most part I agree with this. I'm not so sure about details.

I believe Luciano and his associates, Jewish or otherwise, formed their own national syndicate (combination). I believe it overlapped with Cosa Nostra and largely disintegrated by the 1950's. Murder Inc was part of it's muscle. Whether or not outsiders were allowed to vote on Cosa Nostra commission is a strawman. Perhaps you made a typo but Luciano was Sicilian.

I believe you are misunderstanding me.

First, you kind of made my point. You state that Carl Sifakis’ book is full of factual errors. True! But so is every other one. Each and every so-called eye witness, from Joe Bonanno to Valachi had an agenda - to put themselves, their actions and their organization in the best possible light.

Saying a book is full of factual errors has to gone beyond the statement. What is required is some form of documentation which asserts unequivocally what did happen. Due to the fact that the underworld wants to remain secretive makes this a difficult feat.

Allow me to use a problem in logic that is often use to prove a point, but in the final analysis does not achieve its goal.
One man insists the grass is purple and another that it is pink. The first man brings in mounds of “scientific evidence” which proves the grass is NOT pink. Does this, therefore, prove the grass is purple; of course not.

Sifakis may have gotten things wrong, I agree. However, I have found contradictory research in the writing of Jay Robert Nash, Selwyn Raab and George Anastasia just to name a few. Who is right and who is wrong is up for debate.

Second, did the five families exist before the end (or the beginning for that matter) of the Castellammarese war? Of course they did. But Maranzano set the boundaries and government up for the families and his model still exist today. In fact, he is the one who first used the phrase Cosa Nostra (our thing).

A side note, I found it interesting that Joe Bonanno in “A Man of Honor” right from the start stated unequivocally that “Mafia” wasn’t a thing, but a process. That is a hell of a statement. If true, then it may overturn all modern-day concepts of Cosa Nostra.

Jay Robert Nash explains just after the death of Masseria, Maranzano called a meeting renting a large hall in on Washington Avenue in the Bronx in which “new families were set up.” I may disagree with Mr. Nash’s choice of words, but I believe he was speaking of the construct of the families and not implying the families did not exist at one moment and then came into existence after Maranzano’s decree.

There were other criminal enterprises prior to the War and yet, these where the five families as set by Maranzano who would have controlling interest in New York within the ranks of the Mafia.
The five families and their heads as constructed by Maranzano were Scalise, Gagliano, Profaci, Bonanno and Luciano [Joseph Bonanno, “A Man of Honor” (Simon & Schuster, 1983), p. 141], Scalise later being replaced after the death of Maranzano.
Third and this were things get a little dicey, Torrio, Luciano and Lansky wanted a structure to go beyond just New York. They didn’t only want peace in the Mafia, but cooperation with all cities whoever was in control; be it Italians, Jews and Irish.

Robert Lacey, in his biography of Meyer Lansky wrote, “The idea of a National Crime Syndicate is often confused with the Mafia. Yet they are not the same thing” [Robert Lacey, Little Man: Meyer Lansky and the Gangster Life, (Little Brown & Co., 1991), pp. 200-207.]

If you will, Maranzano setup the New York Commission of the Mafia Families. However, within a generation at least two of the families were now headed up by non-Sicilians namely Albert Anastasia and Vito Genovese. How could this have happened?
Was it due to the National Crime Syndicate (a.k.a. the National Commission)?

Again, quoting Jay Robert Nash, “The Mafia or Cosa Nostra, as it is called in the East by members of the New York Mafia families, did not at first exercise control of this organization. It remained a fraternal criminal brotherhood separate and apart from the syndicate (this is the National Commission headed up by Luciano), albeit several syndicate members were also Mafia…In the early 1930’s the Jewish and Irish gang-leaders still possessed considerable power throughout the U.S., thus preventing the establishment of a syndicate as being an all Italian or Mafia (Sicilian) controlled organization.” [Ibid, p. 38]

I submit, with the death of Dutch Schultz that began to change. Today, it is dominated by men of Italian descent and less Sicilian. This goes both for the Five Families and the National Commission.

At any rate, good comments. I can see you are well read. But now, I must get to work! What a bummer…

Good post and good solid points.

One big misconception is that Maranazano was the one who set the structure of the Families. The structure of the Mafia looked the same back in the 1920s (before he came to power) as it does now. Back then there was a boss, an underboss, a consigliere, caporegimes and soldiers. This comes through in Gentile´s translated memoirs. If you are interested, maybe I can hook you up with a copy. But it´s not an easy read.

In a way, the Mafia is a process, constantly changing and evolving. The early austere Sicilian borgatas, I believe, provided primarily security and safety by unifications of blood related clans and turned (in America, and perhaps in Sicily too) into large "Families" and a "multimilion dollar industry" where money started to make the rules. Bonanno lived through it all, from being a member of the powerful Bonanno/Bonventre/Magaddino clan of Castellammare del Golfo to being a powerful boss of a Mafia Family in New York. He explains, in his book, the loss of tradition, honor and the way of life he knew during this process. And from being a strictly Sicilian "thing", the Mafia started to recruit mainland Italians, who weren´t exposed to this Sicilian tradition and way of life from birth, and therefore couldn´t fully understand it. These things is what I believe Bonanno meant by "The Mafia is a process".

Anyway, my first response was regarding the video/documentary posted above. And I still think that the video contributes to the confusion and inaccuracies you undoubtfully wish to debunk. I am of the same nature. The history of the Mafia, as we think we know it, is actually riddled with misconceptions and faulty conclusions. What we need to do is go back to the original sources, with an open mind, and try to interpert the info in a correct way. There are way too many authors who are basically just doing there books for a quick buck, riding on a wave of sensationalism and popularism in hopes that their books will sell. And I kinda understand them, who would want to buy a book that is not mainstream, goes against what the fake history has taught them and does not include familiar names? Way too much info in books (not to mention documentaries) on the subject of the Mafia is close to falsified or flatout rubbish. And the internet today, where everybody with the slightest interest can set up blogs and put up all kinds of misinformation certainly contributes to the problem. I´m sure you agree.

I hope you enjoyed a good day of work!

"He explains, in his book, the loss of tradition, honor and the way of life he knew during this process. And from being a strictly Sicilian "thing", the Mafia started to recruit mainland Italians, who weren´t exposed to this Sicilian tradition and way of life from birth, and therefore couldn´t fully understand it. These things is what I believe Bonanno meant by "The Mafia is a process".

I agree with your assessment in the above paragraph. Bonanno seemed to lament this change throughout his book.

As to Marazano's construct, I didn't mean to imply within the Borgata, i.e. the rank and structure, but without. This is why there has never been a sixth or seventh family added to the five within New York.

Lastly, all this misinformation and misconceptions floating around out there may be by design.

Imagine you and I were Boss and Underboss (I'll let you be boss:)and we came up with a plan to "hit" a rival gangster, say Dutch Schultz.

Would it not be beneficial for you and I, knowing that the hit would soon be made public and knowing that folks would be able to connect the hit in some way back to us, to spread as much misinformation mixing it in with some truth?

This would greatly benefit us if we were ever charged with the crime and went to trial. Contradictory testimony by witnesses on the how, why and who would go to the heart if a defense strategy. They call it reasonable doubt.

I heard Schultz was hit because the new Syndicate thought he was too much a renegade.

I heard he insulted Charlie's girlfriend.

I heard it was Bo Weinberg's brother wanting to get revenge, etc.

Misinformation can, at some points, be a more powerful defense then straight up denial.

Years down the road, the only ones who would really know the truth would be those directly involved.

Ergo, do we really ever know the real history and facts? Does law enforcement?

Personally, I believe the Chicago Outfit, Marcellos, Trafficante, and Roselli were in someway involved with the assassination of JFK, and may have had direct involvement.

Jim Garrison probably did more at helping spread the disinformation more than anyone. But all we are left with is circumstantial evidence and numerous conspiracy theories floating around.

Here's a fact: Ginny Sac just had a 95 pound mole taken off her ass.

Now that's funny!

I always have this convo with people. Sicilians are Italians. So many people think that Sicilians are so much different but they are italian. Sicily is part of Italy. Just not part of the mainland. Now Sicilians and northern Italians were very different but Sicilians and calabrese and maybe some other southern italian regions were very much the same in my analysis. Whether you're sicilian, neapolitan, calabrese or whatever you're italian to me. It'd be like saying I'm a Floridian not an American. But I would agree that there were many differences between southern Italians and northern Italians. Always irked me when I heard someone say "I'm sicilian not italian". And most of my grandparents came from Sicily too.

Wanted to address first post.... I think your making "the life" still too attractive!LOL! I don't even think you'll be given much of a living. I honestly think kids believe you become rich when you get a button! You won't be given any money because it would have to come from someone else's pocket. You can start a book, you might inherit somebody's whatever if they're recently dead. Chances are you will already be running some rackets, maybe extorting drug dealers and shady businesses, such as strip clubs, which are very popular among mobsters for obvious reasons. Nowadays it might be different. Notice how you keep seeing the same names over and over again in news stories. The mob is really only making sons and brothers and nephews and in-laws... more are related by blood and if you didn't grow up in the neighborhood, forget it. Lot more associates, fewer made guys is what I hear.

Excellent points.

Many of the popular authors (including primary sources) have errors and contradictions, but it doesn't mean we dismiss everything they wrote. Joe Valachi, Joe Bonanno Sr., Gentile and Abe Reles are primary sources people use for early research, but what do we do when they contradict each other? For example, Joe Valachi claims he was sponsored by Joe Bonanno but Bonanno himself denied this. Which is fact?

Joe Valachi stated that mafia soldiers did not participate in Murder Inc. killings and that they were separate run organizations. This may have been generally true what was a powerful underboss like Anastasia doing with them? People who deny a national combination deny these facts by dismissing or pretending they didn't happen.

Primary sources are considered more reliable than secondary, but not always. Single sources of information like Valachi or Gentile should always be suspect unless they can be corroborated with other sources of information. It's always a problem where they might disagree, but on points they agree I guess we can place some degree of confidence.

Anyone here of Danny Miano

Anyone here of Danny Miano

I always wondered if frank Sinatra was really that involved with the mafia.

No but Sinatra had friends and acquaintances in the mafia.

There's stories about Sam Giancana getting Sinatra lucrative movie parts when his career was flagging.

He was questioned by authorities in 1951 over a suspicion that he had transported money for the mob to Havana. He was hired to provide the entertainment at a summit of mobsters including the exiled Lucky Luciano.

I think Frank definitely liked to keep company with wiseguys and they liked him, he was a source of pride for Italian Americans.